Is anything ever real?

Nov 24, 2003 23:57

Karma is just the lie I tell myself so that my life isn't just a myriad of people walking all over me. Justice is the concept I hold onto for my sanity. But really, as life continues to progress, I question more and more the validity of this supposed "cosmic nobility ( Read more... )

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sean_gabriel November 25 2003, 12:06:08 UTC
I think that in a way all that does is make religion a comfort blanket, though, and not much better. I'm not trying to be outright provocative - although I'm definitely working from a decidedly cynical perspective - but I do see most people's logic for "belief" in anything to be based on the fact that they want their lives to seem safer.

In a way that's what religion does as I see it, since it means that even if extremely dangerous and fatal things happen in life, there's a fall back. That's where existentialism steps in and tells you that that fall back is simply us fooling ourselves, so you have to decide whether or not to do things on their own merit rather than according to any objective standards.

In my book, that means that the only thing we can believe in is our decision making ability itself - something that is confirmed for me by the fact that there are so many religions or belief systems out there and yet they all have in common that people choose to believe in them. We need to believe in something since all we have is the ability to judge, and without standards there's no way of applying that ability. Therefore we create infinite numbers of minutely differing codes of conduct and label them "Karma", "Christianity", "Morality", "Fairness" or whatever else.

I'm not trying to denigrate anyone's beliefs here, or say that those sytems are bad or wrong, but primarily to warn against making them into such a fixed point in your life that you become a bigot. It's good to have something to fall back on, even if it is partly our own creation, since that then allows us to act according to the conviction that we have a logic to it. Without a system it's easy to become paralysed by

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pryvtedncr November 26 2003, 03:51:33 UTC
I didn't think you were trying to denigrate anyone's beliefs at all.

I do see your point, however, and agree with you that religion isn't the be-all, end-all, cure-all of existence. I mean, if we put some thought into it, practically all of the major conflicts (i.e., wars) in the last century have been based on religion, or religious conflict. In other words, the "my way of life is better than your way of life" ideology. That's not what I look for when I turn to my belief in God.

I staunchly oppose anyone who says that they believe in a -- for now, let's just say "higher power" -- in one breath, and then in the other breath says that they hate *insert group here*. In fact, it marvels and astounds me that most of the world's wars have been fought "in the name of God". The way I see it, if God is as omnipotent and powerful as most would have Him (or, for some, Her) be, then That Entity would be more than capable of polishing off a few humans on His/Her own without human interference. Most people use God as a crutch in order to satisfy their own agendas (or bigotry). That's what's caused most people to turn away from religion.

I'm also not one of those blind-faith, bible-thumping individuals, either. In my short existence, I have become quite the embittered cynic. As a man of math and science (as well as the arts, but that's beside the point), I need logic and proof of things. I just can't accept a hypothesis as fact based upon someone's desire to have it hold true, or on the consensus of the mass-populous. I draw my own conclusions, and make my own decisions.

For me, I don't understand why there has to be such a dichotomy. Most people feel that science/existentialist-thought/religion cannot coexist. I don't see why they can't. For most people, to believe in a God or a "higher power" is to abandon all logic, all notions of our free will as humans, all beliefs that humans are the supreme beings in our universe. They feel that destiny is no longer under their control, or that we are mere puppets on a string. For others, the views of the existentialist or the scientist are thought to be blasphemous, an abandonment of the belief that we were created or some such nonsense. I think quite the opposite. I feel that since I have this incredible capacity to reason, to love, to think and deduce for myself, to choose, to analyze and interpret, to create -- all stem from a being that, although more powerful than I, is not that much unlike myself. I guess that doesn't make sense to anyone but me.

In the end, I think what most existentialists don't want is to be boxed in and labeled as the mindless zombies they see most religious zealots to be. In some way, I agree with them. But, there's also this: as humans, we love to label things. We are taxonomists. So, as soon as you have decided -- thought for yourself -- what you want, who want to be, what you want to do with your life, there is another 6 - 7% of the population who thinks just like you do. And they have a label attached to them. And you've just joined them.

It's what we do as sentient, intelligent humans. We label and name things... and each other.

This probably has made no sense at all. For that, I apologize.

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sean_gabriel November 27 2003, 04:46:15 UTC
I did a post about this string on my journal which you can have a look at if you want. It picks up where the post limit cut me off and explains a bit more clearly (I hope) what I mean. It's here. I also think that I'll probably continue this conversation there rather than here so that poor old C's page isn't completely hijacked.

However, just to round off, thought I'd say that I'm completely with you on the condemnation of those who "use" religion as tools for social or political agendas. Just look at what Bush has done. However, I do feel that being "logical" about religion misses what it all stems from: the fact that we all have some things we can't understand - that must inherently be beyond us. Whether you call it God or whether you believe it's simply a feature of a biological system that it can never understand the exact nature of an organ by looking at it in small pieces (could you tell what a computer does by looking at it and saying "If we take out the fan, the whole thing breaks, so the fan must be essential to it's very workings"?), we need explanations that we can believe in, so everyone creates their own versions of that explanation. As you say, they end up with a million labels and just as many variations, but they all come down to that same need for an explanation.

My only point is: if we can never understand the explanation, why do we worry about it so much? Why do we let it become a symbol for ideologies which limit our opportunities rather than seeing it as a sign of the freedom we do actually have? That's the side of religion I've never understood: it co

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sean_gabriel November 27 2003, 04:48:22 UTC
It did it again! Cutting me off in mid flow...

Actually, all that was meant to say was: it contradicts itself almost as soon as it starts.

Alright, I'll stop preaching to you all now.

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