Episode 19 discussion?

[nayami]

Since the last episode discussion post went so well, I figured why not give it another go-around? My original plan was to post these on Saturdays so people had a good day to check out the raw and track down summaries and the like but since I enjoy the discussions myself and won't be around much Saturday, this one comes a bit early

Comments

tl;dr

[verity_isle]

Somewhat OT, but what does siscon mean right now, actually? In J-fandom it usually means you're very attached to your sister or more liable to be much nicer to them than the rest of the universe, but it seems the E-fandom tends to take it to 'bordering on incestual'. By first definition I would put LL as a siscon...well, he's ALWAYS been a siscon, really. By second...I don't think it ever crossed his mind, though I wouldn't be surprised if Euphemia had a mild crush on him back in the day

Re: tl;dr

[nayami]

I would really enjoy it if Lelouch's attempt to save his friend (and effectively himself) blew up in his face just like each of Lelouch's unconscious/conscious attempts to preserve his humanity in face of the Geass' power. I think what I enjoy about Lelouch other than his dorky failures at life is how incredibly broken he is at being what everyone (as in the fandom) wants him to be. He has all this power, he has crazy vengeance, he should be evil/a socialpath/Light. But instead he's this excellent, calculating strategist who freezes up when he most needs to take action. I love him for it.

I also like you opinion on why Lelouch doesn't want to win Suzaku over with the Geass. I have had this opinion since he found out Suzaku was the Lancelot pilot. Why does he keep approaching Suzaku as Zero? Why doesn't he try to win Suzaku over while continuing his role as Lelouch? Approval would be a good way to explain it. He wants his actions to be sanctioned by someone whose opinion truly matters most to him. Seriously, I am trying to be as non-

Re: tl;dr

[rukawagf]

That part, C.C. was like "wait, Kallen isn't back either. Why that pervert, he's gone off and got him in a situation where he's with a woman and alone, again" or something like that.

blargh, it's too bad i only watched this once so my memory of the japanese isn't great -.-;;; once i get back home i'll translate it more properly (i'm at work~~~)

Re: tl;dr

[nayami]

Awesome. XD Even better than I hoped.

Re: tl;dr

[verity_isle]

Actually, that whole part was...

C.C. : Thanks to your teasing, I had to talk to that tiresome man... *presumably hears about Kallen* Even Kallen is on the island? You have really bad taste, to [something I'm not sure] an observer."

Re: tl;dr

[rukawagf]

there you go!!! I knew i was off on this one!

thanks! :D

Re: tl;dr

[verity_isle]

I would say that he's preserving his humanity in the face of an unrelenting reality that has very, very slippery slopes instead. XD The Geass is just a tool, after all. I sure wouldn't want him to be like Light, though! Light is a been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Lelouch is very much uncharted territory, and he's intriguing. Your summary sums that aspect of him up nicely and I have nothing to comment. <3

Lelouch's been wanting approval for a long time. He's been trying to get Suzaku to 'accept' the Kishidan since Episode 9, if you'll recall, though with very little success. XD I don't think he was even expecting SZK to join him at that point, but simply wanting a "maybe they COULD be right about some things". He's emotionally insecure despite being a really strong character.

See below. :D She didn't say much, but I don't think she was very pleased. The 'person she talks to' was teasing/asking after her relationship with Lelouch back in...12, I think, and he/she possibly thinks it's funny.

Re: tl;dr

[zalem]

As much as I love Light, I don't want Lulu to be a Light clone. If I want Light I'll go watch the very wonderful Death Note anime currently running or look at the manga. So I really LIKE the fact that Lulu is struggling so much and hestitant. His fall from grace seems more subtle and gradual. But I do notice some harping in the fandom about how Lulu isn't evil enough and I don't get it. Why do they need him to be more evil? Maybe because the rumors/spoilers keep saying that he will takes certain steps towards heartlessness/evil and they expect it to happen right away for some reason. But if he's meant to be evil then he will eventually be, so they should just be patient.

Though I don't think Lulu will ever be like Light even if he does become a "villain"...he still has some goodness in him that won't be crushed so easily (like his love for Nunnally).

Re: tl;dr

[nayami]

The way I see it is the only way Lelouch can achieve the darkness some of the interviews hint at is he would have to lose one of his special people. I hope it's not Nunnally. I also don't understand why people want so much for him to be evil and get all pissed when he isn't a cold-hearted bastard all the time. I like it that he surprises us; predictable characters are only so much fun.

Re: tl;dr

[rukawagf]

Lulu and Light are completely different. I've said Lulu is like Light + Kamui, but Lulu is not Lulu = Light.

Mostly because when Light sees Misa Misa, he immediately thinks "I better not fall in love with her. that's how all those stupid guys lose in the end" or something like that.

While Lulu obviously has attachments to several ppl in his life such as Nanully and Suzaku and possibly Euphie. Also Lulu's one of the main objective is to create a world that's peaceful for Nanully. while Light wants to create a world that's basically HIS and judged by HIM ALONE. sorta deal.

so no worries about Lulu ever becoming Light. :P

Re: tl;dr

[verity_isle]

Lulu was actually a criminally nice person as a child, and he's still rather nice deep down in his silly little heart. I'm not sure why fandom wants him to be like Light. Light's sociopathy was fascinating, but it's also one-dimensional. Lelouch is going against his nature with his decisions and delusions, and I think it makes for a much, much more interesting character. Maybe they want him to be smarter? I like his plans being flawed, though. It makes him so much more 17th year old human and not this calculations machine. (This doesn't mean I don't like Light, it's just that Zero is a more multifaceted character than Kira)

Unless she dies. He might really become a monster that way, though I also think he wouldn't ever really become irredeemable.

Re: tl;dr

[nayami]

Criminally nice as a child? I saw his unwillingness to fight and his oh so adorable smiles for his family/siblings, but criminally nice is an interesting way of putting it. I mean this in a "aww" way and not a smartass way.

Fandom does want Lelouch to be smarter, and I can't understand why. If he's perfect, then he's boring. People don't like it when characters succeed too much, and Lelouch has his fair share of victories and failures. I think he presents a nice balance.

I think as long as Suzaku or Nunnally remain in Lelouch's life, he will always be within reach of the light, as corny as that sounds.

Re: tl;dr

[verity_isle]

It's his reasoning behind things now and then both, the way he acts towards Nanaly (which seems to be the way he acted to most people he didn't feel threatened with, when he was young) plus the way he worded stuff as a kid that led me to this conclusion. I do have um kinda a soft spot for kids, of course, so I'm hardly unbiased.

I'll admit to wanting him to do more interesting tactics somewhere around Episode 10, but from then to now I've dealt with the fact that Lulu goes with the most practical way out of a situation, and not the most spectacular. It's the way you win chess, after all, a series of sensible plans instead of whizbang movements (unless *that* is needed). It's just that he was fairly unconventional in his Episode 1 Chess and I think fans wanted that to extend to his plans, when it was really just an illustration of his methods.

Aye, and that's the problem, isn't it?

Re: tl;dr

[zalem]

I could see him going crazy and turning into a monster if Nunnally dies, but even then he won't be like Light. He's just not as cold-blooded

strictly opinion

[verity_isle]

I am hinging on the "success story, revenge tragedy" comment made waaaaaaay early in the series. We have a gist of why it's tragic now, I think, which leaves the success part. The word they used was more 'bad person' than a 'villain', though

Re: tl;dr

[verity_isle]

I so totally agree with your analysis. Throughout the series Lelouch has been compared to Light but this episode clearly showed that Lelouch is not all head but he still has a heart unlike Light. With Light my approval went down as time went on with him utter cold-bloodedness but with Lelouch even though he is becoming more cold-blooded he still retains kindess to those that REALLY precious to him.

When I found out that Lulu told Suzaku to "live" my heart melted. True he was saving himself too but he could have said "evade". This shows that he was following his heart in the spur of the moment instead of using his head. As stated by Mao, wording of the commands are everything.

I was so afraid because the spoilers say that he was gonna become more and more cold but its this far down the road and he still at least has people that are important to him. I really didn't want him to turn into his dad.