Does Suicide Guarantee Damnation from God?
RmmstAngst: why do people think God damns people that commit suicide?
gaesum: your question has a few assumptions broiled into it
gaesum: let me sort them out
RmmstAngst: what are those?
gaesum: God has created you
gaesum: so He ultimately owns you, not you
gaesum: so you don't have a right to do whatever with your body, only what He allows you to do
gaesum: He does not allow you to commit murder
gaesum: suicide is murding one's self
gaesum: any violation of God's will has the penalty of death
gaesum: or eternal separation from Him
RmmstAngst: but anyone that commits suicide has a mental illness
RmmstAngst: he must be able to see that
gaesum: any sin carries this penalty
RmmstAngst: why would he punish you for having a mental illness
RmmstAngst: I'm fine now
RmmstAngst: I don't want to kill myself
RmmstAngst: it's all a state of mind
gaesum: i don't think anyone who commits suicide has a mental illness
gaesum: you could define 'state of mind' loosely enough so that drinking a soda pop alters your 'state of mind'
RmmstAngst: I beg to differ, but you can think what you want
gaesum: what about Judas?
RmmstAngst: if you ever come to the brink of death trying to kill yourself, you might think differently
RmmstAngst: you might question your own sanity
RmmstAngst: as I did
gaesum: if you are at the point of committing suicide then your emotions are playing great havoc on you
gaesum: even if it was due to a mental illness
gaesum: i think God would be fair
gaesum: He knows all; everyone completely
RmmstAngst: if God would damn someone for being mentally ill, then I don't believe in your god
gaesum: that was not one of my assumptions, was it?
RmmstAngst: that's what you said though!
RmmstAngst: you said God damns everyone that commits suicide
RmmstAngst: I think you're assuming you have the knowledge of God
gaesum: you asked the question
RmmstAngst: and can decide who is insane and who is only emotinally troubled
gaesum: i'm not deciding that
gaesum: i said that God is fair
gaesum: and can judge these things
gaesum: but if what if you intentionally cause the state of mind that leads to suicide?
RmmstAngst: how could one do that?
gaesum: by drinking
gaesum: there are other ways
RmmstAngst: tell me, what if?
gaesum: that was the first to mind
gaesum: then intentionally causing the state of mind is where you err
RmmstAngst: and what is the consequence?
gaesum: the apostles and prophets spoke both of getting drunk and committing murder as sins
RmmstAngst: let me guess, damnation?
gaesum: what is the consequence of any sin?
RmmstAngst: I don't know what to think
RmmstAngst: but what caused you to drink in the first place? were you not allready depressed?
gaesum: God created us as emotional being
gaesum: beings
gaesum: He also intended that we keep our emotions in check; that we do not perform actions simply because of the emotion we are in
gaesum: that is, He also created us as rational beings
RmmstAngst: I personally believe we have less control over our own actions than you might think
gaesum: that might be that case
RmmstAngst: maybe that's why the monks flogged themselves
gaesum: but whatever control you have is what you are held accountable for
gaesum: perhaps
gaesum: there are many choices we can't make in life
RmmstAngst: but if God knows everything, couldn't he just damn you for hating yourself?
gaesum: we are held accountable for the choices we do make
RmmstAngst: what about thoughts we create?
gaesum: i think you would hate God before you hated yourself
gaesum: maybe you wouldn't realize you hated God before you hated yourself
RmmstAngst: so if I hate myself, I hate God?
gaesum: sometimes thoughts are implanted in our minds
gaesum: but it is our choice to cultivate those thoughts
gaesum: or to dismiss them
RmmstAngst: I think we are merely a living computer program that responds to external stimuli.
gaesum: you can think that
gaesum: but that would make this entire conversation meaningless
RmmstAngst: so how much should we be punished for our programming
gaesum: if you think this conversation is meaningless i'll save my breath, so to speak
RmmstAngst: why flogg yourself for lusting after a woman when God gave you the desire to procreate.
RmmstAngst: I don't think it's meaningless, do you?
gaesum: i certainly don't think it's meaningless
RmmstAngst: then let's continue
gaesum: but if we are just programmed to respond such and such by such and such, then it doesn't matter what we think
gaesum: or what i think
RmmstAngst: exactly
g
gaesum: your question has a few assumptions broiled into it
gaesum: let me sort them out
RmmstAngst: what are those?
gaesum: God has created you
gaesum: so He ultimately owns you, not you
gaesum: so you don't have a right to do whatever with your body, only what He allows you to do
gaesum: He does not allow you to commit murder
gaesum: suicide is murding one's self
gaesum: any violation of God's will has the penalty of death
gaesum: or eternal separation from Him
RmmstAngst: but anyone that commits suicide has a mental illness
RmmstAngst: he must be able to see that
gaesum: any sin carries this penalty
RmmstAngst: why would he punish you for having a mental illness
RmmstAngst: I'm fine now
RmmstAngst: I don't want to kill myself
RmmstAngst: it's all a state of mind
gaesum: i don't think anyone who commits suicide has a mental illness
gaesum: you could define 'state of mind' loosely enough so that drinking a soda pop alters your 'state of mind'
RmmstAngst: I beg to differ, but you can think what you want
gaesum: what about Judas?
RmmstAngst: if you ever come to the brink of death trying to kill yourself, you might think differently
RmmstAngst: you might question your own sanity
RmmstAngst: as I did
gaesum: if you are at the point of committing suicide then your emotions are playing great havoc on you
gaesum: even if it was due to a mental illness
gaesum: i think God would be fair
gaesum: He knows all; everyone completely
RmmstAngst: if God would damn someone for being mentally ill, then I don't believe in your god
gaesum: that was not one of my assumptions, was it?
RmmstAngst: that's what you said though!
RmmstAngst: you said God damns everyone that commits suicide
RmmstAngst: I think you're assuming you have the knowledge of God
gaesum: you asked the question
RmmstAngst: and can decide who is insane and who is only emotinally troubled
gaesum: i'm not deciding that
gaesum: i said that God is fair
gaesum: and can judge these things
gaesum: but if what if you intentionally cause the state of mind that leads to suicide?
RmmstAngst: how could one do that?
gaesum: by drinking
gaesum: there are other ways
RmmstAngst: tell me, what if?
gaesum: that was the first to mind
gaesum: then intentionally causing the state of mind is where you err
RmmstAngst: and what is the consequence?
gaesum: the apostles and prophets spoke both of getting drunk and committing murder as sins
RmmstAngst: let me guess, damnation?
gaesum: what is the consequence of any sin?
RmmstAngst: I don't know what to think
RmmstAngst: but what caused you to drink in the first place? were you not allready depressed?
gaesum: God created us as emotional being
gaesum: beings
gaesum: He also intended that we keep our emotions in check; that we do not perform actions simply because of the emotion we are in
gaesum: that is, He also created us as rational beings
RmmstAngst: I personally believe we have less control over our own actions than you might think
gaesum: that might be that case
RmmstAngst: maybe that's why the monks flogged themselves
gaesum: but whatever control you have is what you are held accountable for
gaesum: perhaps
gaesum: there are many choices we can't make in life
RmmstAngst: but if God knows everything, couldn't he just damn you for hating yourself?
gaesum: we are held accountable for the choices we do make
RmmstAngst: what about thoughts we create?
gaesum: i think you would hate God before you hated yourself
gaesum: maybe you wouldn't realize you hated God before you hated yourself
RmmstAngst: so if I hate myself, I hate God?
gaesum: sometimes thoughts are implanted in our minds
gaesum: but it is our choice to cultivate those thoughts
gaesum: or to dismiss them
RmmstAngst: I think we are merely a living computer program that responds to external stimuli.
gaesum: you can think that
gaesum: but that would make this entire conversation meaningless
RmmstAngst: so how much should we be punished for our programming
gaesum: if you think this conversation is meaningless i'll save my breath, so to speak
RmmstAngst: why flogg yourself for lusting after a woman when God gave you the desire to procreate.
RmmstAngst: I don't think it's meaningless, do you?
gaesum: i certainly don't think it's meaningless
RmmstAngst: then let's continue
gaesum: but if we are just programmed to respond such and such by such and such, then it doesn't matter what we think
gaesum: or what i think
RmmstAngst: exactly
g