The Meta that ran away (Race relations inside of Fox River especially pertaining to Linc and Sucre)
Okay. This started out as a Meta on what I thought Linc's time in Gen-Pop was like and what I thought about Linc's beef with Sucre was about. But then it took a turn for me.
LINC IN GEN-POP Lincoln Burrows and the Aryan Brotherhood/Alliance of Purity
It would be interesting to read fics about Linc before he was put on Death Row. [jules1013]
I know! I keep wondering which crowd he ran with when he was *normally* in prison. Either just before Death Row or on any of his priors. Since he doesn't have any ethnic connections (Hispanic, Black or Mob/Italian) that really just leaves loner (like Westmoreland) or the nazis. And I'm not completely convinced that Lincoln did not align himself with the Aryans at least on occasion. (even though I'd pick him as the guy who wouldn't get over his dislike for T-Bag and T-Bag's crimes, but who knows, who was leading the Aryans before T-Bag)
Of course, I kind of picture a prequel where Linc hung out with Westmoreland before being on Death Row. Since foxbio mentions that Westmoreland got picked on a lot by the other prisoners because they all thought that he had money."[thelana]
I always figured that there is no way he did not run with the Aryans at least occasionally. I mean, he is not mafia, he is neither Latino or black, so who else would he run with?[thelana]
The white supremacist/redneck may be a "type", but it's one of those types that is absolutely based in fact. In the prisons I know of they're part of the ABs (Aryan Brotherhood). A lot of whites, even if they don't share the racist views of ABs, are forced to get along with them for protection; same with blacks & Hispanics, who are forced to hang out with their own "kind". It's a survival thing. Intermixing of the ethnic/racial groups is difficult to carry out, even if it is your nature to be friends with people outside your own group on the outside.[Chomskyite]
Okay, all my quotes are at the beginning this time because I have the same type of response to all of them and repeating myself sound weird and forced.
In prison? You don't really have a choice who you run with. You're forced into your own race-group. Punishable by death. And if you try to talk to someone not of your race group without permission ("Your" boys talking to "their" boys) you will get your shit fucked up by "your" group. I see Linc getting the fucking shit knocked out of him in the showers after talking to the wrong person during Chow or something. And because Linc's most obvious (Because anyone can be mixed and not look it) racial grouping put him in with the Woods and they would most likely approach him first because they'd be "offering" him protection. And no, I can't get American History X out of my head now either.
And dude, people can only stand to be loners for so long; eventually you need someone to talk to and/or protection. Now I'm not saying he's mister "White Power" or anything, but I think at one point or another he ran with the Woods. Part of the reason I think this? Is because Michael's still alive. If this were real prison he would be very much not alive or not in good shape by now. Because Linc doesn't seem to have a problem with C-Note (At least beyond the reasonable ones) I don't think he ever let himself fall into their beliefs but I think he has some big pull in Fox River, big enough to keep T-Bag and the other whites (Not to mention every other Head in Fox River) to keep from killing Michael.
He doesn't strike me as the guy with a lot of money on his books, and I don't see him easily being able to smuggle things in for people, nor does he appear to me to be numbers-smart enough to be able to do the other inmates taxes. He is a big boy though and I can easily seeing him doing intimidation or punishments for the whites when he had to.
Talking with Sucre on the yard is semi-excusable for several reason which I'll get into in a different section of this. However. Michael went to C-Note way back in the first episode and asked him for the Pugnac. Directly. In prison? Michael would have to find the head white boy and ask him for the Pugnac, the head white boy (If he decided to do it) would then go and work out a deal with the head black boy and he would then head on over to C-Note. What Michael did not only "disrespected" a lot of people but it cut off the overhead and a lot of people who normally profit from deals didn't. That gets you fucked up on the inside.
SUCRE AND LINC Fernando Sucre's status in the racial hierarchy of Fox River
Problem is that to out knowledge most prisoners haven't been around as long, with the exception of Sucre (and we know that Linc doesn't like Sucre, though I'm guessing there could be some sort of history there. Hmmm, maybe Linc called him a thief because he thinks that Sucre took something from him?)[thelana]
See, the fact that Linc doesn't have a problem with C-Note takes the steam out of my theories that what Linc said was a generalization of Mexicans (Even though Sucre's Puerto Rican) so that leads me to think it's something specific.
I'm thinking either Sucre got set for a fall, set someone else for one, or there was a miscommunication between the Mexican Mafia (Who wouldn't be quick to claim Sucre because he's not "one of theirs" and even though he's "down with the brown" he has no "pride.") and the Aryan Brotherhood at one point and Sucre got the rap for it. The problem with him stealing something in prison is that if he got caught? Anything from a race riot to a neck-snapping to a shank to a "lesson" depending on what he stole from who.
I was talking with someone (I'm almost positive it was thelana but I'm not sure) somewhere (This was before I started to C&P everything for metaing) about Sucre and how I thought he was an exception to the race-thing at Fox River. How? Because Sucre's not Mexican.
The three main groups consist of the three most common races in American prisons;
1) The whites - Peckerwoods, Woods, AB, and all other whites, though depending on the prison there may be more than one groups of whites and they don't always get along.
2) The blacks - Which is a bit more tricky because even among them there's some dissension what with the Bloods and Crypts and other gangs.
3) The Mexicans - Usually headed by the Mexican Mafia (MM) who actually tend to get along better within th groups then the other but are complicated.
Now I know that most people would just assume that Sucre would run with the MM because the Latinos would obviously need to stick together, right? Wrong. The Mexicans take care of the Mexicans and that's it. Puerto Ricans like Sucre aren't actually common enough in most prisons to have their own groups, though of course this may vary depending on you geography; in some prisons Haitians may be a groups unto themselves while in others they may either be integrated with their race or may be Floaters. Floaters are those people few and far between who don't fit into any one group and can just wander around as they wish, within limits of course.
Sucre seems to be a floater to me, mostly because in his first interaction we see with someone not Michael it's a young black man named "Wholesale" who's got the hook-up on commissary. He's friendly with the other man and nobody seems to be on their way over to shank the fuck out of him. Therefor he must get along well enough on his own, at least with the blacks. The majority of the whites don't like anyone else though and so talking to one of them (Like Michael) would get both of them in some big-time trouble.
If Sucre was a floater then that would explain some things. He's charming and funny with a good heart; which makes me think he's a low-level lackey. I see him being a runner, the guy who risks his ass to get this from this guy and give it to that one or to have Maricruz (Which is a stereotypical name for a reason and yet could only be more real and perfect if it were Maria) smuggle some things in to him to get for this guy or that one. And since up until recently his tie to Mari-Cruz was strong and dependable I can see him getting her to piggy-back things like letters (Since phone-calls from this prison are obviously much, much different then real ones).
Let me take a moment to explain piggy-backing. Prisoners in different prisons or yards are not allowed to communicate with each other through mail. Yet they do. How? By sending a letter to someone on the outside and having them send it to whoever it needs to go to, this is also done when you don't want there to be a direct route from A to B. Theoretically if Sucre had something going on with Mari-Cruz's help that kept him safe and/or neutral on the inside he would have a lot more to lose by her leaving then just her. If that were the case him risking his full sentence and extra time would make sense because staying inside without her help could get him killed then.
Even though Michael's buddies with Sucre? And eventually (after getting pushed around a bit) getting somewhat in with C- Note? Would that make any difference?[mooyoo]
Actually his friendship with Sucre could possibly get him cut even quicker, but that depends on whether or not Sucre runs with anyone. Chicago doesn't have a large Puerto Rican population in prison and the Mexicans are really less on the Latino- love and more on the Mexican-pride. If Sucre didn't "belong" anywhere then Michael hanging with him would only really piss off the whites and random people here and there.
The C-Note thing though would've gotten the shit knocked out of Michael way back at the end of the first episode because Michael went straight to C-Note to try and get his pills. In prison there's a specific way you are supposed to do things like that in their and what he did should've gotten him "taught a lesson."
That was one of the things that always really fascinated me about Oz, all of the different relationships between the groups - like how the tattooed, leather-clad biker guys hooked up at some point with the Aryans, which I always thought was interesting - and how people who wouldn't have really interacted outside of prison were spending a lot of time together with a sense of racial "us vs. them."[mooyoo]
That actually sounds very realistic, hard-core murderers and people who are in for theft soon become "good friends" because it's pounded into their heads that it's "Us Vs. Them." There's something really kinda funny in a disturbing way about a "lifetime loser" and someone who took one wrong turn ending up thisclose.
LINC IN GEN-POP Lincoln Burrows and the Aryan Brotherhood/Alliance of Purity
It would be interesting to read fics about Linc before he was put on Death Row. [jules1013]
I know! I keep wondering which crowd he ran with when he was *normally* in prison. Either just before Death Row or on any of his priors. Since he doesn't have any ethnic connections (Hispanic, Black or Mob/Italian) that really just leaves loner (like Westmoreland) or the nazis. And I'm not completely convinced that Lincoln did not align himself with the Aryans at least on occasion. (even though I'd pick him as the guy who wouldn't get over his dislike for T-Bag and T-Bag's crimes, but who knows, who was leading the Aryans before T-Bag)
Of course, I kind of picture a prequel where Linc hung out with Westmoreland before being on Death Row. Since foxbio mentions that Westmoreland got picked on a lot by the other prisoners because they all thought that he had money."[thelana]
I always figured that there is no way he did not run with the Aryans at least occasionally. I mean, he is not mafia, he is neither Latino or black, so who else would he run with?[thelana]
The white supremacist/redneck may be a "type", but it's one of those types that is absolutely based in fact. In the prisons I know of they're part of the ABs (Aryan Brotherhood). A lot of whites, even if they don't share the racist views of ABs, are forced to get along with them for protection; same with blacks & Hispanics, who are forced to hang out with their own "kind". It's a survival thing. Intermixing of the ethnic/racial groups is difficult to carry out, even if it is your nature to be friends with people outside your own group on the outside.[Chomskyite]
Okay, all my quotes are at the beginning this time because I have the same type of response to all of them and repeating myself sound weird and forced.
In prison? You don't really have a choice who you run with. You're forced into your own race-group. Punishable by death. And if you try to talk to someone not of your race group without permission ("Your" boys talking to "their" boys) you will get your shit fucked up by "your" group. I see Linc getting the fucking shit knocked out of him in the showers after talking to the wrong person during Chow or something. And because Linc's most obvious (Because anyone can be mixed and not look it) racial grouping put him in with the Woods and they would most likely approach him first because they'd be "offering" him protection. And no, I can't get American History X out of my head now either.
And dude, people can only stand to be loners for so long; eventually you need someone to talk to and/or protection. Now I'm not saying he's mister "White Power" or anything, but I think at one point or another he ran with the Woods. Part of the reason I think this? Is because Michael's still alive. If this were real prison he would be very much not alive or not in good shape by now. Because Linc doesn't seem to have a problem with C-Note (At least beyond the reasonable ones) I don't think he ever let himself fall into their beliefs but I think he has some big pull in Fox River, big enough to keep T-Bag and the other whites (Not to mention every other Head in Fox River) to keep from killing Michael.
He doesn't strike me as the guy with a lot of money on his books, and I don't see him easily being able to smuggle things in for people, nor does he appear to me to be numbers-smart enough to be able to do the other inmates taxes. He is a big boy though and I can easily seeing him doing intimidation or punishments for the whites when he had to.
Talking with Sucre on the yard is semi-excusable for several reason which I'll get into in a different section of this. However. Michael went to C-Note way back in the first episode and asked him for the Pugnac. Directly. In prison? Michael would have to find the head white boy and ask him for the Pugnac, the head white boy (If he decided to do it) would then go and work out a deal with the head black boy and he would then head on over to C-Note. What Michael did not only "disrespected" a lot of people but it cut off the overhead and a lot of people who normally profit from deals didn't. That gets you fucked up on the inside.
SUCRE AND LINC Fernando Sucre's status in the racial hierarchy of Fox River
Problem is that to out knowledge most prisoners haven't been around as long, with the exception of Sucre (and we know that Linc doesn't like Sucre, though I'm guessing there could be some sort of history there. Hmmm, maybe Linc called him a thief because he thinks that Sucre took something from him?)[thelana]
See, the fact that Linc doesn't have a problem with C-Note takes the steam out of my theories that what Linc said was a generalization of Mexicans (Even though Sucre's Puerto Rican) so that leads me to think it's something specific.
I'm thinking either Sucre got set for a fall, set someone else for one, or there was a miscommunication between the Mexican Mafia (Who wouldn't be quick to claim Sucre because he's not "one of theirs" and even though he's "down with the brown" he has no "pride.") and the Aryan Brotherhood at one point and Sucre got the rap for it. The problem with him stealing something in prison is that if he got caught? Anything from a race riot to a neck-snapping to a shank to a "lesson" depending on what he stole from who.
I was talking with someone (I'm almost positive it was thelana but I'm not sure) somewhere (This was before I started to C&P everything for metaing) about Sucre and how I thought he was an exception to the race-thing at Fox River. How? Because Sucre's not Mexican.
The three main groups consist of the three most common races in American prisons;
1) The whites - Peckerwoods, Woods, AB, and all other whites, though depending on the prison there may be more than one groups of whites and they don't always get along.
2) The blacks - Which is a bit more tricky because even among them there's some dissension what with the Bloods and Crypts and other gangs.
3) The Mexicans - Usually headed by the Mexican Mafia (MM) who actually tend to get along better within th groups then the other but are complicated.
Now I know that most people would just assume that Sucre would run with the MM because the Latinos would obviously need to stick together, right? Wrong. The Mexicans take care of the Mexicans and that's it. Puerto Ricans like Sucre aren't actually common enough in most prisons to have their own groups, though of course this may vary depending on you geography; in some prisons Haitians may be a groups unto themselves while in others they may either be integrated with their race or may be Floaters. Floaters are those people few and far between who don't fit into any one group and can just wander around as they wish, within limits of course.
Sucre seems to be a floater to me, mostly because in his first interaction we see with someone not Michael it's a young black man named "Wholesale" who's got the hook-up on commissary. He's friendly with the other man and nobody seems to be on their way over to shank the fuck out of him. Therefor he must get along well enough on his own, at least with the blacks. The majority of the whites don't like anyone else though and so talking to one of them (Like Michael) would get both of them in some big-time trouble.
If Sucre was a floater then that would explain some things. He's charming and funny with a good heart; which makes me think he's a low-level lackey. I see him being a runner, the guy who risks his ass to get this from this guy and give it to that one or to have Maricruz (Which is a stereotypical name for a reason and yet could only be more real and perfect if it were Maria) smuggle some things in to him to get for this guy or that one. And since up until recently his tie to Mari-Cruz was strong and dependable I can see him getting her to piggy-back things like letters (Since phone-calls from this prison are obviously much, much different then real ones).
Let me take a moment to explain piggy-backing. Prisoners in different prisons or yards are not allowed to communicate with each other through mail. Yet they do. How? By sending a letter to someone on the outside and having them send it to whoever it needs to go to, this is also done when you don't want there to be a direct route from A to B. Theoretically if Sucre had something going on with Mari-Cruz's help that kept him safe and/or neutral on the inside he would have a lot more to lose by her leaving then just her. If that were the case him risking his full sentence and extra time would make sense because staying inside without her help could get him killed then.
Even though Michael's buddies with Sucre? And eventually (after getting pushed around a bit) getting somewhat in with C- Note? Would that make any difference?[mooyoo]
Actually his friendship with Sucre could possibly get him cut even quicker, but that depends on whether or not Sucre runs with anyone. Chicago doesn't have a large Puerto Rican population in prison and the Mexicans are really less on the Latino- love and more on the Mexican-pride. If Sucre didn't "belong" anywhere then Michael hanging with him would only really piss off the whites and random people here and there.
The C-Note thing though would've gotten the shit knocked out of Michael way back at the end of the first episode because Michael went straight to C-Note to try and get his pills. In prison there's a specific way you are supposed to do things like that in their and what he did should've gotten him "taught a lesson."
That was one of the things that always really fascinated me about Oz, all of the different relationships between the groups - like how the tattooed, leather-clad biker guys hooked up at some point with the Aryans, which I always thought was interesting - and how people who wouldn't have really interacted outside of prison were spending a lot of time together with a sense of racial "us vs. them."[mooyoo]
That actually sounds very realistic, hard-core murderers and people who are in for theft soon become "good friends" because it's pounded into their heads that it's "Us Vs. Them." There's something really kinda funny in a disturbing way about a "lifetime loser" and someone who took one wrong turn ending up thisclose.