Massive double linkspam
So last night I was tired and also there was a pretty bad thunderstorm, and now I've got yesterday's linkspam and today's Comic-Con movie news to deal with. And deal with it we shall, in the most orderly way I can manage.
General Comic-Con news
Welcome to Comic-Con!; SDCC: Exclusive Photos From the Comic-Con Floor!; Girls on Film: Comic Con's Push for Geeks, Heroines, and Women-Driven Discussion; Photo Gallery: The Celebs at Comic-Con; @CupcakeGoth: Comicconpervs posting photos of jerks trying to take upskirt photos of female attendees. GOOD.
@NextMovie: Fan: "Was filming 'Memento' confusing?" Guy Pierce: "I can't remember" #SDCC
Breaking Dawn
@Ceilidhann: The Breaking Dawn camp for Comic-Con #whatisthisidonteven
“They kept telling us, ‘You are not a line. You are not official. Come back on Wednesday,” explains Robert Curry of San Diego, Calif. “So we started self-regulating.”
“You don’t know how many times we were told we were unofficial,” seconds Arianna Ruiz of Antioch, Calif.. “At one point they said, ‘You don’t exist.’”
[...]
Intrepid reporter Annie Barrett and Dawn then spend long minutes talking about how much fun slumber parties were when they were little girls, which is something I will have to take their word on, since when I was a little girl I was playing videogames and also was a boy.
There's even a Cardboard Edward who looks embarrassed to be there. Certainly, he does not like the t-shirt he has been festooned with.
I tend to think they were hoping to placate the masses with muffins and actors: @EW: Nikki Reed, @AshleyMGreene, @ElizabethRease, @mammarazzi1 (Booboo) & Julia Jones served b'fast to their fans! #EWSDCC
@Movieline: From Comic-Con: Follow our Twilight: Breaking Dawn press conference live-blog starting shortly. As opposed to the panel later in the morning. For some reason, for the press con, Summit was "peppering in authors Veronica Roth, Isaac Marion, and Erin Morgenstern" (with whom they're working, I assume. I know Roth has a deal with Summit for her YA book Divergent), I guess because they knew they had a captive audience until the lead actors came out.
Catch up on this morning's Breaking Dawn panel in our all day-long Hall H live-blog! ("CUE COPIOUS FAN SCREAMS"); 'The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn' Countdown: TwiHards Wowed By Clips, Actors, and Surprises at Comic-Con; New Twilight footage includes nudity, and Jacob crossing a major line. Plus new details of the bloody birth scene!
@cinemablend: Comic Con 2011: Live Blogging The Breaking Dawn Panel
@maureenjohnson: @cleolinda oh my god
@cleolinda: @maureenjohnson "It doesn't seem to be a tearaway leather jacket, but anything can happen."
@maureenjohnson: @cleolinda *clings to wing of next plane to San Diego*
@Movieline: Adorbs question of the day: Little girl asks Rob, "Do you like having the baby with Bella?"
Awwww, that's so swe...
@Movieline: Fan compliments Rob on his back muscles in the [bed-breaking scene in the] trailer. "I think I can speak for all of us when I say, 'Nom nom nom.'"
@cleolinda: Did he... did he just get hit on by a lolcat?
The Hobbit
Peter Jackson's latest production video for The Hobbit is live and awesome; Official Look at All 13 Dwarves from 'The Hobbit.'
Harry Potter
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows breaks $200 million, but falls just $1M short of Dark Knight's 5-day record; Being a Harry Potter lookalike is not great, says Harry Potter lookalike ("I said to him, 'You look like a fat asshole.' It came to blows. I removed my glasses first. (Presumably, I looked less like Harry Potter as a result").
Spider-Man
@bestforfilm: First poster for The Amazing Spider-Man, y'all; Andrew Garfield is the new Peter Parker in the first trailer for 'The Amazing Spider-Man' in HD; @MYMHM: Ha! Spider-Man trailer side by side Mirrors Edge video game.
The Hunger Games
Lionsgate Debuts the Official 'Hunger Games' Poster; SDCC: Hunger Games Offers Mockingjay Swag. Related: Jennifer Lawrence Frontrunner For 'The Silver Linings Playbook.'
Prometheus, The Kind-Of Maybe-Not Alien Prequel
@firstshowing: First photo from Ridley Scott's Prometheus just revealed!! http://twitpic.com/5tmjk3
First footage from Ridley Scott’s Prometheus made our space helmets explode!
@csconfest: The Prometheus sizzle reel gave me goose bumps... wow. #sdcc
@EricVespe: Scott just said there are 2 androids in Prometheus!!!
@scottEweinberg: Excerpt from #sdcc 1978: "Yeah, one of the ALIEN characters is a robot! That's a surprise though!"
@scottEweinberg: New convention coming in September: PresentCon! Get a fleeting glimpse at your Christmas presents four months early! Yeah!
@Movieline: Damon Lindelof jokes that he titled Prometheus so that it could sound "as pretentious as Inception. The original title was just Explosion."
@Movieline: At the Prometheus press conference, when Charlize Theron is finally asked a question she jokes, "Sorry, I'm just here to be pretty." #SDCC
@ElisabethRappe: Prometheus looks INCREDIBLE. Terrifying! Fassbender cries, so you know it has to be crazy and sick #SDCC11
Captain America
Check out this new exclusive clip from 'Captain America: The First Avenger'; Captain America is an incredible war movie that just happens to star a superhero; @christylemire: Captain America is an earnest, old-fashioned action picture, and that's OK; Entertainment Weekly: "Captain America: The First Avenger is stolidly corny, old-fashioned pulp fun."
The Avengers
'Avengers' posters, assemble! Your best look yet at Captain America's modern costume! (also an Iron Man poster); Exclusive: The Captain America writers tell us about the conflict between Cap and Iron Man.
Dream House
New Trailer, Picture and Poster for 'Dream House' Starring Daniel Craig, Rachel Weisz and Naomi Watts. O hai! Daniel Craig's Dream House Trailer Spoils The Entire Movie. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
So why would Universal Pictures spoil their own movie? The Dream House production has been troubled, pretty much all along. Our sources tell us Daniel Craig and Rachel Weisz are so unhappy with the movie they may not even do press for it, and that director Jim Sheridan lost control of the film to the studio. Were he still involved in the production, it seems certain that Sheridan would not have wanted this trailer to be seen.
The thing is, assuming you didn’t know that it’s one big spoiler, this is actually a pretty great trailer. Confusing, scattered, all over the map, but there’s so much going on that you can’t help be interested in it. And that may be why they’ve decided to ruin the film. It’s worth it, if it gets people in seats for that initial weekend I suppose, no matter if they walk out angry because the trailers already gave away the entire movie.
See... if you showed me all this on the understanding that there was more to it, I would really want to see it. Particularly to see how the hell they dig themselves out of that twist. (Shit, even if this trailer tells us everything but the last five minutes, I still kind of want to know how they resolve this.) If I'd gotten there not knowing and found out that was the twist--well, I might or might not have thrown something. Let's put it this way. There was a movie I saw--mentioning the title might be a spoiler, but it was a Scorsese movie, you can probably guess--where it's a much better movie experience if you know the twist going in, so that the existence of a ~twist~ ceases to be the point of the movie. It's more about the experience of a man rediscovering something he has taken great pains to hide from himself, what he needs to believe in order to function; the final scene, to me, says a lot about him as a character. I can live with a worn-out plot twist if the movie is actually about something deeper than that.So... let's hope that's maybe the case here. This is the first I have heard of this movie's actual premise, so I have no idea.
(I wrote the previous rambling paragraph last night, before the SDCC tsunami had whacked me upside the head.)
Prequel of the Rise of the Planet of the Apes
SDCC: Rise of the Planet of the Apes Comic-Con Clip; Third Clip From Rise of the Planet of the Apes Hits. I just want to take a moment to say that I don't understand why movie sites always talk about a clip or trailer "hitting." What is it, a meteor?
Real Steel
Comic-Con 2011: 'Real Steel' star @RealHughJackman talks fans, robots; @RealHughJackman: "Amazing time at Comic Con!!!! What a crowd!!!! Thanks for coming out!!" For some reason, I feel the need to defend Jackman's Twitter honor by pointing out that he had his username way before he was involved with a movie with "Real" in the title. He's on his own with the exclamation point overuse, though. Related: SDCC: Hugh Jackman Confirms The Wolverine Villain.
Sin City 2
Comic Con 2011: Robert Rodriguez Announces Plans For Sin City 2, Machete Sequels, And Heavy Metal; @Movieline: "Robert Rodrigez tells Hall H that Frank Miller has written a script for Sin City 2 that could begin shooting as early as this year."
In Time
New Footage and Posters from 'In Time' Starring Justin Timberlake and Amanda Seyfried; @io9: Our First Impressions of Justin Timberlake's Dystopian Future Thriller, from the Writer of Truman Show.
Drive
Refn's Drive Trailer Is Here And Red Band; @Movieline: "Guillermo del Toro on Nicolas Refn's Drive: 'Go see this fucking movie, please! I beg you'"; I Challenge You Not to Watch the Red Band Trailer for 'Drive' Starring Ryan Gosling, with a link to an A+ review.
Miscellaneous pictures
The Raven's First Poster Is Written In Blood, and I'll be damned if it's not pretty cool. Related: SDCC: New Immortals, Shark Night 3D, The Raven & Haywire Pics
Poster for Soderbergh's 'Haywire', Starring MMA Star Gina Carano, Debuts.
Poster for Brad Pitt's 'Moneyball' Debuts.
SDCC: First Look at The Darkest Hour: "The Darkest Hour, opening on December 23, follows five young people who find themselves stranded in Moscow, fighting to survive in the wake of a devastating alien attack. The studio says that "the 3D action thriller highlights the classic beauty of Moscow alongside mind-blowing special effects from the minds of visionary filmmaker Timur Bekmambetov ('Wanted,' 'Night Watch') and director Chris Gorak."
First Look: Lily Collins as Snow White.
Ehhhhhhh. I feel strongly about my Snow Whites, for some reason, and this isn't doing it for me. I like the dress, but not in the context of Snow White, I guess.
Miscellaneous trailers
'Kill List,' One of the Best Films of 2011, Gets Its First Full Trailer.
'Paranormal Activity 3' Trailer Hits, Reveals a Prequel Set in the '80s.
New Clip and Trailer for the Killer Sci-Fi/Comedy 'Attack the Block': "I've already reviewed the film (read that here) where I called it "something like Goonies meets Gremlins meets Half Baked" and I included it on my list of the best films of 2011 so far."
Bunraku Trailer Gives Josh Hartnett A Horrible Mustache. Didn't a trailer come out for this a million years ago? I'm pretty sure I already saw something for this.
Miscellaneous casting
Bradley Cooper playing Satan in Paradise Lost? "The involvement of Cooper looks set to make this film a box office smash, but the more we read about it, the more it seems like the film will be a very loose adaptation. Very loose. In fact, it sounds like it’s going to be 300, but in Heaven." Uh.
Ben Stiller to Direct The Secret Life of Walter Mitty.
Shia LaBeouf to hunt down Robert Redford in film about 1960s radicalism. I'm not sure why my face immediately narrowed into a side-eye expression.
The future of movies condensed to single destabilizing sentence: “Lionsgate has announced director John Lussenhop (Takers) has selected newcomer Dan Yeager to play Leatherface in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3D, a new installment in the franchise that picks up where the original 1974 film left off.” Didn't they already rebootmake this once? Did I just hallucinate that?
Miscellaneous miscellany
New Release Dates: Zack Snyder's 'Man of Steel' (2013), Arnold's 'Last Stand' and 'Cabin in the Woods'.
We've seen Jemaine Clement's Scary Men in Black 3 alien!
GK Films Announces a Historically Accurate Update of 'Spartacus.' Our Lady of Soundtrack Sorrow will still probably be in it.
New Line Dropping 'Escape From New York.'
Forthcoming 'Clockwork Orange' musical apparently 'pretty close to West Side Story': "There’s this scene in prison, where one of the prisoners is kicked to death, which is very throwaway and jolly. That’s completely different from the corresponding episode in the film, which is very gloomy and depressing."
Which I immediately RTed to Dayna. @scottEweinberg: Ah, cinema. RT @moviesdotcom: Whoa: Freddy Krueger Joins 'Mortal Kombat.'
She had other things to be concerned about, however. @queenanthai: RETRACTABLE!? WTF? RT @comicsalliance: Wonder Woman's Retractable Pants and Final Fate of Wally West
Is that all? I think that's all. Well, that's GOING to be all until tomorrow, at any rate.
General Comic-Con news
Welcome to Comic-Con!; SDCC: Exclusive Photos From the Comic-Con Floor!; Girls on Film: Comic Con's Push for Geeks, Heroines, and Women-Driven Discussion; Photo Gallery: The Celebs at Comic-Con; @CupcakeGoth: Comicconpervs posting photos of jerks trying to take upskirt photos of female attendees. GOOD.
@NextMovie: Fan: "Was filming 'Memento' confusing?" Guy Pierce: "I can't remember" #SDCC
Breaking Dawn
@Ceilidhann: The Breaking Dawn camp for Comic-Con #whatisthisidonteven
“They kept telling us, ‘You are not a line. You are not official. Come back on Wednesday,” explains Robert Curry of San Diego, Calif. “So we started self-regulating.”
“You don’t know how many times we were told we were unofficial,” seconds Arianna Ruiz of Antioch, Calif.. “At one point they said, ‘You don’t exist.’”
[...]
Intrepid reporter Annie Barrett and Dawn then spend long minutes talking about how much fun slumber parties were when they were little girls, which is something I will have to take their word on, since when I was a little girl I was playing videogames and also was a boy.
There's even a Cardboard Edward who looks embarrassed to be there. Certainly, he does not like the t-shirt he has been festooned with.
I tend to think they were hoping to placate the masses with muffins and actors: @EW: Nikki Reed, @AshleyMGreene, @ElizabethRease, @mammarazzi1 (Booboo) & Julia Jones served b'fast to their fans! #EWSDCC
@Movieline: From Comic-Con: Follow our Twilight: Breaking Dawn press conference live-blog starting shortly. As opposed to the panel later in the morning. For some reason, for the press con, Summit was "peppering in authors Veronica Roth, Isaac Marion, and Erin Morgenstern" (with whom they're working, I assume. I know Roth has a deal with Summit for her YA book Divergent), I guess because they knew they had a captive audience until the lead actors came out.
Catch up on this morning's Breaking Dawn panel in our all day-long Hall H live-blog! ("CUE COPIOUS FAN SCREAMS"); 'The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn' Countdown: TwiHards Wowed By Clips, Actors, and Surprises at Comic-Con; New Twilight footage includes nudity, and Jacob crossing a major line. Plus new details of the bloody birth scene!
@cinemablend: Comic Con 2011: Live Blogging The Breaking Dawn Panel
@maureenjohnson: @cleolinda oh my god
@cleolinda: @maureenjohnson "It doesn't seem to be a tearaway leather jacket, but anything can happen."
@maureenjohnson: @cleolinda *clings to wing of next plane to San Diego*
@Movieline: Adorbs question of the day: Little girl asks Rob, "Do you like having the baby with Bella?"
Awwww, that's so swe...
@Movieline: Fan compliments Rob on his back muscles in the [bed-breaking scene in the] trailer. "I think I can speak for all of us when I say, 'Nom nom nom.'"
@cleolinda: Did he... did he just get hit on by a lolcat?
The Hobbit
Peter Jackson's latest production video for The Hobbit is live and awesome; Official Look at All 13 Dwarves from 'The Hobbit.'
Harry Potter
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows breaks $200 million, but falls just $1M short of Dark Knight's 5-day record; Being a Harry Potter lookalike is not great, says Harry Potter lookalike ("I said to him, 'You look like a fat asshole.' It came to blows. I removed my glasses first. (Presumably, I looked less like Harry Potter as a result").
Spider-Man
@bestforfilm: First poster for The Amazing Spider-Man, y'all; Andrew Garfield is the new Peter Parker in the first trailer for 'The Amazing Spider-Man' in HD; @MYMHM: Ha! Spider-Man trailer side by side Mirrors Edge video game.
The Hunger Games
Lionsgate Debuts the Official 'Hunger Games' Poster; SDCC: Hunger Games Offers Mockingjay Swag. Related: Jennifer Lawrence Frontrunner For 'The Silver Linings Playbook.'
Prometheus, The Kind-Of Maybe-Not Alien Prequel
@firstshowing: First photo from Ridley Scott's Prometheus just revealed!! http://twitpic.com/5tmjk3
First footage from Ridley Scott’s Prometheus made our space helmets explode!
@csconfest: The Prometheus sizzle reel gave me goose bumps... wow. #sdcc
@EricVespe: Scott just said there are 2 androids in Prometheus!!!
@scottEweinberg: Excerpt from #sdcc 1978: "Yeah, one of the ALIEN characters is a robot! That's a surprise though!"
@scottEweinberg: New convention coming in September: PresentCon! Get a fleeting glimpse at your Christmas presents four months early! Yeah!
@Movieline: Damon Lindelof jokes that he titled Prometheus so that it could sound "as pretentious as Inception. The original title was just Explosion."
@Movieline: At the Prometheus press conference, when Charlize Theron is finally asked a question she jokes, "Sorry, I'm just here to be pretty." #SDCC
@ElisabethRappe: Prometheus looks INCREDIBLE. Terrifying! Fassbender cries, so you know it has to be crazy and sick #SDCC11
Captain America
Check out this new exclusive clip from 'Captain America: The First Avenger'; Captain America is an incredible war movie that just happens to star a superhero; @christylemire: Captain America is an earnest, old-fashioned action picture, and that's OK; Entertainment Weekly: "Captain America: The First Avenger is stolidly corny, old-fashioned pulp fun."
The Avengers
'Avengers' posters, assemble! Your best look yet at Captain America's modern costume! (also an Iron Man poster); Exclusive: The Captain America writers tell us about the conflict between Cap and Iron Man.
Dream House
New Trailer, Picture and Poster for 'Dream House' Starring Daniel Craig, Rachel Weisz and Naomi Watts. O hai! Daniel Craig's Dream House Trailer Spoils The Entire Movie. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
So why would Universal Pictures spoil their own movie? The Dream House production has been troubled, pretty much all along. Our sources tell us Daniel Craig and Rachel Weisz are so unhappy with the movie they may not even do press for it, and that director Jim Sheridan lost control of the film to the studio. Were he still involved in the production, it seems certain that Sheridan would not have wanted this trailer to be seen.
The thing is, assuming you didn’t know that it’s one big spoiler, this is actually a pretty great trailer. Confusing, scattered, all over the map, but there’s so much going on that you can’t help be interested in it. And that may be why they’ve decided to ruin the film. It’s worth it, if it gets people in seats for that initial weekend I suppose, no matter if they walk out angry because the trailers already gave away the entire movie.
See... if you showed me all this on the understanding that there was more to it, I would really want to see it. Particularly to see how the hell they dig themselves out of that twist. (Shit, even if this trailer tells us everything but the last five minutes, I still kind of want to know how they resolve this.) If I'd gotten there not knowing and found out that was the twist--well, I might or might not have thrown something. Let's put it this way. There was a movie I saw--mentioning the title might be a spoiler, but it was a Scorsese movie, you can probably guess--where it's a much better movie experience if you know the twist going in, so that the existence of a ~twist~ ceases to be the point of the movie. It's more about the experience of a man rediscovering something he has taken great pains to hide from himself, what he needs to believe in order to function; the final scene, to me, says a lot about him as a character. I can live with a worn-out plot twist if the movie is actually about something deeper than that.So... let's hope that's maybe the case here. This is the first I have heard of this movie's actual premise, so I have no idea.
(I wrote the previous rambling paragraph last night, before the SDCC tsunami had whacked me upside the head.)
Prequel of the Rise of the Planet of the Apes
SDCC: Rise of the Planet of the Apes Comic-Con Clip; Third Clip From Rise of the Planet of the Apes Hits. I just want to take a moment to say that I don't understand why movie sites always talk about a clip or trailer "hitting." What is it, a meteor?
Real Steel
Comic-Con 2011: 'Real Steel' star @RealHughJackman talks fans, robots; @RealHughJackman: "Amazing time at Comic Con!!!! What a crowd!!!! Thanks for coming out!!" For some reason, I feel the need to defend Jackman's Twitter honor by pointing out that he had his username way before he was involved with a movie with "Real" in the title. He's on his own with the exclamation point overuse, though. Related: SDCC: Hugh Jackman Confirms The Wolverine Villain.
Sin City 2
Comic Con 2011: Robert Rodriguez Announces Plans For Sin City 2, Machete Sequels, And Heavy Metal; @Movieline: "Robert Rodrigez tells Hall H that Frank Miller has written a script for Sin City 2 that could begin shooting as early as this year."
In Time
New Footage and Posters from 'In Time' Starring Justin Timberlake and Amanda Seyfried; @io9: Our First Impressions of Justin Timberlake's Dystopian Future Thriller, from the Writer of Truman Show.
Drive
Refn's Drive Trailer Is Here And Red Band; @Movieline: "Guillermo del Toro on Nicolas Refn's Drive: 'Go see this fucking movie, please! I beg you'"; I Challenge You Not to Watch the Red Band Trailer for 'Drive' Starring Ryan Gosling, with a link to an A+ review.
Miscellaneous pictures
The Raven's First Poster Is Written In Blood, and I'll be damned if it's not pretty cool. Related: SDCC: New Immortals, Shark Night 3D, The Raven & Haywire Pics
Poster for Soderbergh's 'Haywire', Starring MMA Star Gina Carano, Debuts.
Poster for Brad Pitt's 'Moneyball' Debuts.
SDCC: First Look at The Darkest Hour: "The Darkest Hour, opening on December 23, follows five young people who find themselves stranded in Moscow, fighting to survive in the wake of a devastating alien attack. The studio says that "the 3D action thriller highlights the classic beauty of Moscow alongside mind-blowing special effects from the minds of visionary filmmaker Timur Bekmambetov ('Wanted,' 'Night Watch') and director Chris Gorak."
First Look: Lily Collins as Snow White.
Ehhhhhhh. I feel strongly about my Snow Whites, for some reason, and this isn't doing it for me. I like the dress, but not in the context of Snow White, I guess.
Miscellaneous trailers
'Kill List,' One of the Best Films of 2011, Gets Its First Full Trailer.
'Paranormal Activity 3' Trailer Hits, Reveals a Prequel Set in the '80s.
New Clip and Trailer for the Killer Sci-Fi/Comedy 'Attack the Block': "I've already reviewed the film (read that here) where I called it "something like Goonies meets Gremlins meets Half Baked" and I included it on my list of the best films of 2011 so far."
Bunraku Trailer Gives Josh Hartnett A Horrible Mustache. Didn't a trailer come out for this a million years ago? I'm pretty sure I already saw something for this.
Miscellaneous casting
Bradley Cooper playing Satan in Paradise Lost? "The involvement of Cooper looks set to make this film a box office smash, but the more we read about it, the more it seems like the film will be a very loose adaptation. Very loose. In fact, it sounds like it’s going to be 300, but in Heaven." Uh.
Ben Stiller to Direct The Secret Life of Walter Mitty.
Shia LaBeouf to hunt down Robert Redford in film about 1960s radicalism. I'm not sure why my face immediately narrowed into a side-eye expression.
The future of movies condensed to single destabilizing sentence: “Lionsgate has announced director John Lussenhop (Takers) has selected newcomer Dan Yeager to play Leatherface in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3D, a new installment in the franchise that picks up where the original 1974 film left off.” Didn't they already rebootmake this once? Did I just hallucinate that?
Miscellaneous miscellany
New Release Dates: Zack Snyder's 'Man of Steel' (2013), Arnold's 'Last Stand' and 'Cabin in the Woods'.
We've seen Jemaine Clement's Scary Men in Black 3 alien!
GK Films Announces a Historically Accurate Update of 'Spartacus.' Our Lady of Soundtrack Sorrow will still probably be in it.
New Line Dropping 'Escape From New York.'
Forthcoming 'Clockwork Orange' musical apparently 'pretty close to West Side Story': "There’s this scene in prison, where one of the prisoners is kicked to death, which is very throwaway and jolly. That’s completely different from the corresponding episode in the film, which is very gloomy and depressing."
Which I immediately RTed to Dayna. @scottEweinberg: Ah, cinema. RT @moviesdotcom: Whoa: Freddy Krueger Joins 'Mortal Kombat.'
She had other things to be concerned about, however. @queenanthai: RETRACTABLE!? WTF? RT @comicsalliance: Wonder Woman's Retractable Pants and Final Fate of Wally West
Is that all? I think that's all. Well, that's GOING to be all until tomorrow, at any rate.