Hannibal 1x08: "Fromage"

[cleolinda]

To begin: The problem with "I just really want to be your friend," the kind of philosophical rambling you have come to expect from Cleolinda Industries; I am officially threatening NBC with my wrath. Also, here's some fan street art that turned out really, really well.

Also, yes. Korea is very, very excited about this show.

@particle_p: We need

Comments

[jubilantia]

This episode was intense. I saw the previews, but so much went down, I don't even know

[darksidhe]

Re: sending Will after Tobias: WTF HANNIBAL?

Those...were my exact words when I saw that. WTF Hannibal! So I totally get you on that one. I think the general consensus is that Hannibal was straight up testing Will. He didn't want him dead, I truly believe that, but he wanted to see if he was clever enough to still be fully in the friend category (and potentially hoping - given his track record - that he'd just go ahead and take care of that little problem for him, so that Hannibal didn't have to dirty his hands. If you think of Will's history with killers, it's very likely he would have killed him dead since Hannibal knew Tobias' intent was to kill.

I honestly think on some level Hannibal was /still/ underestimating just how much of a threat Tobias could be as well.

Poor Will, every single relationship we've seen illustrated for him on this show is so, so very bad for him. Jack, Alana, Abigail and Hannibal. All of them are no good for his mental state in one way or another. If he'd actually make friends with Beverly, he'd

[jubilantia]

he wanted to see if he was clever enough to still be fully in the friend category

It's funny and sad that Hannibal has these "requirements" for people to be his friend. You're doing it wrong, dude! True friends aren't conditional. Even if they make a mistake, they're still your friend. That's kind of the definition. Or, you get the sense that they are a kindred spirit without putting them through life-or-death trials.

Of course, if I said this to him, he would eat me.

I honestly think on some level Hannibal was /still/ underestimating just how much of a threat Tobias could be as well.

It's hard for me to imagine Hannibal miscalculating anything, especially with Tobias being so magnificently menacing, but I agree with you there.

I love Will's interactions with Beverly! He needs more of those. It's funny how he shies away from her straightforward, unvarnished brand of companionship, and gravitates towards the terrible ones. Maybe Hannibal's "you're attracted to psychopaths" assessment of Franklyn applies to Will, as well.

I also

[cleolinda]

It's hard for me to imagine Hannibal miscalculating anything, especially with Tobias being so magnificently menacing, but I agree with you there.

To be fair: I'm not sure that even the most brilliant psychiatrist would have guessed that Fancy Cello Teacher was going to bust out a steel garrote-whip and kickfighting moves. The one murder of his that Lecter knew anything about involved a lot of time-consuming "craftsmanship," and he didn't know about the fight in the basement yet.

I love Will's interactions with Beverly! He needs more of those.

I love Beverly so much. moar Beverly and Beverly's knee boots pls.

Part of my reaction was the fact that it's the most emotion or weakness, period, from Hannibal that we've seen.Yeah--vulnerability, which is not normally what you get from him. If you want to beat the control/connection drum again, you could say that he tried to control his connection with Will--here, prove yourself to me--and realized that maaaybe he shouldn't have done that. And it was that moment when he didn't have

[jubilantia]

I am trying with all the strength I possess not to woobify this character, but "omg gasp he's alive!!" was precious.

GAH I know. I started out being all "No, they can't make me put Draco Leather Pants on the psycho killer" but now it's like "omg he was worried he just wants a friend even though he doesn't exactly know how to go about getting one".

The show is masterful in that it's making you feel sympathy for this character that you know doesn't deserve it, and who probably doesn't even want it from anyone. He's such a great character, because you can see the reasons he's doing things, even if you don't really get why. He takes "marching to the beat of a different drummer" to a whole 'nother level.

[cleolinda]

Heh, yeah. I also feel a certain amount of responsibility for setting the tone of the overall discussion, particularly since I'm not a fan of the Draco in Leather Pants Effect generally, and I'm specifically unnerved by some of the Hannibal Lecter fan squee I saw way, way back in the day. So, plenty of "absolute worst" reminders, etc. But yeah, he's a fantastic character, much the way Ben was one of my favorites on Lost. You can be an amazing character to watch while not actually being an exemplary person.

[kittyfu]

So I'm showing my ignorance here, but I had no idea what the Draco Leather Pants thing was, so I had to look it up (eep I'm clueless) and now I get it I think. Yes.

and I'm specifically unnerved by some of the Hannibal Lecter fan squee I saw way, way back in the day.

Was that due to the novels or due to the movies (the fan squee I mean)?

[cleolinda]

Here's the explanation I'd recommend, if you didn't end up here already:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants

It was the movies, really--I translated news articles for a couple of movie sites for fun around 2000-2001, and ended up seeing some really weird things. Mostly women fangirling the character, that kind of echo-chamber egging-each-other-on thing you see in a lot of fandoms. Fandom today can be super, super weird, but often in a really whimsical way as various memes catch on, whereas this was more your standard "please stop talking about all the creepy things you'd like to do to/with the cannibal" stuff. I like to keep the temperature around here a little cooler, so to speak.

[kittyfu]

Oh yes, that's the one I found actually. I went back and thought about all the characters that seem to have huge followings, and realized that it's true for a lot of those character followings. I think this is the first real TV show I've stepped into, as opposed to remaining on the periphery so to speak. Perhaps that's why I didn't get the Leather Pants reference at first.

I'm all for fandom, but the "creepy things done with/to the cannibal" idea freaks me out. Do people do that? I think at some point, it becomes somewhat disrespectful to the character... I mean, is that a thing or am I just grasping at straws? Also, do I lose what little cred I have for saying I had no idea what a Mary Sue story was until about a week ago? I'm admitting that because, as I stated, lately I just hang around the periphery of fandom until now. Which brings me here, where I'm being enlightened re: the story/history of Hannibal and people's opinions/thoughts. Gets the ol wheels turning for me. I will admit that I adore Hugh Dancy and Mads Mikkelsen,

[jubilantia]

Hooray TV Tropes newbie! Just... bring a buddy. http://xkcd.com/609/

Don't feel bad about learning new things; everyone experiences things differently, and at different times. Some people enjoy things forever without becoming acquainted with the specific deconstruction of what it all means. The great thing about fandom is that you don't have to get involved in parts you don't want to, and you don't need it to enjoy something. It just adds a new dimension to the enjoyment you have.

I'm all for fandom, but the "creepy things done with/to the cannibal" idea freaks me out.Ohhh yeah. I'm with you there. It's interesting how many people use all types of fiction as an outlet for issues in their own lives; I guess with Hannibal it can take on pretty uncomfortable qualities. Characters take on a new life when you release them into the world. As Cleo said, we know he's a terrible, terrible person, but the show casts him in a certain light that makes you rethink your perception of him. And

[kittyfu]

Hahaha thank you, I'm definitely finding out more each day. Oh gosh, that webcomic is spot on!

It just adds a new dimension to the enjoyment you have.

Oh yes, this! I couldn't quite put it into words, but you did it for me!

I agree, especially about fiction. I'm a terrible fiction writer, but I dabble in CNF and poetry. Writing as an outlet, in general, I can understand... but yeah, I think some (not all of course) take that to a whole new level. You're right, it can take on uncomfortable qualities.

As Cleo said, we know he's a terrible, terrible person, but the show casts him in a certain light that makes you rethink your perception of him.

Another truth. I think I mentioned somewhere that I found myself wanting to trust Hannibal, or trust that he has the best intentions for Will (or anyone for that matter) BUT NO of course we know he doesn't, but that human suit of his is brilliantly constructed... which just adds to the creepy, unnerving atmosphere I enjoy.

And it doesn't help that he's portrayed as urbane, sophisticated,

[cleolinda]

Aaaaand yet another line of movie dialogue made even better by the show. Heh.

[kittyfu]

So so true.

[cleolinda]

Well, the Leather Pants thing originates pretty deep inside fandom anyway, and I'm a Fandom Wank veteran, so I know more about that kind of thing than I should, probably.

Do people do that? I think at some point, it becomes somewhat disrespectful to the character... I mean, is that a thing or am I just grasping at straws?I'd say it's A Thing generally--people write/draw/talk about doing everything you can possibly think of to every character imaginable, really. I think sometimes you end up with a play-time version of the character that... doesn't really have anything to do with the original character at all. (Which, you know--your mind is your sandbox, have fun in it.) It's when people either don't realize that or won't admit it that you get problems--when they start expecting the characters on the show, let's say, to act like the fanfic versions in their head, and getting mad when they don't. (Mostly you see this when people decide that X and Y characters should be together, even when that was just never ever going to happen, and

[kittyfu]

...when they start expecting the characters on the show, let's say, to act like the fanfic versions in their head, and getting mad when they don't.

Oh yeah, I've seen this unfold before. Or the all-out wars that start within fandoms (not even between two different fandoms, but within) which, I guess I never understood. I thought fandom in general brought people together. Sure, to each his/her own, but let's just agree to disagree, and continue to flail and be happy that we can chat about this cool show/movie/whatever.

I don't think I've witnessed anything like that (yet) but I get what you're saying. Maintain some decorum for lack of a better word? I can't think at the moment. And hello to your really cool mom. :)

(No worries. Although, I will try to keep my flailing to a minimum. I flail about things pretty often.) XD

This is for @Kittyfu and @cleolinda:

[vermouth1991]

One such incidence that I witnessed in real time was the tumblr blogger "alanawill" (she's since changed her name two times, reflecting the changes of fandom preferences: "alanawill"/Hannibal -> "cormierdelphines"/Orphan Black-> "alxvse"/OitNB), she's "alanabloom" on the fanfic site archiveofourown dot org, and she wrote the most brilliant character study pieces involving Will and Alana, but after Hannibal x Alana happened she all but renounced the Hannibal fandom and switched to writing about the other two shows instead. I wish I can say something, but everything sounds patronizing by now.

Her writing is still first-rate though, I suggest you go check it out. Before HxA happened, she managed to create an entire family history for Alana Bloom, with just her line "I have brothers." as foundation. One of her brothers is named "Aaron" and may or may not be a 6'5" beanpole. ;-)