Journey's End
I made it home from Edinburgh yesterday. After getting up at 3:30 am BST, I finally made it to Detroit at 12:30 pm EDT. Unfortunately, my luggage didn't arrive with me. I got a call at 7:30 this morning that 1 of my 2 bags has made it - the other, who knows: Edinburgh, Amsterdam, Timbuktu? *sigh
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The thing with Rose and her two Doctors was very interesting. Rose was already falling in love with the Ninth Doctor (at least, I think she was), so we know that she can accept different versions of him. And she does need one who can open up a bit more. One other thing I thought as I watched this was that it made all the seeming morass of romantic intrigue a little clearer and a little more palatable. The Doctor loved Rose, but as he pointed out, he loved her when he was hurt and angry and *needed* to love her. It's possible that now that she's been gone for a while, he doesn't really need her the same way (decent of him not to say so). Rose really couldn't be a permanent small-c companion for the Doctor, being mortal and all, but she and the humanish Doctor are much more on a level.
I also couldn't help wondering if he knew that leaving Rose again was the way to go, knowing that he has Dr. River Song in the future. But I'm not sure when Dr. River Song arrives--perhaps Rose is long dead by then--so maybe that's not an issue.
What struck me in this episode wasn't so much Doctor as Donna. I felt awful for her. Despite a few remarkable traits--a fantastic memory, superfast typing, and being very tough and stubborn--Donna is depicted as a very average sort of person. She's not dumb, but not smart. Although she has some great skills and talents, they're not the kind that get you a lot of acclaim in our world. She's a bit obnoxious. So seeing her get dialed back to her former self, unaware of all she had done, made me very sad.
I think that was their point; that in that usual optimistic Dr. Who way, the creators are telling us that any of us could do these things--if the Whoninverse were real, perhaps have done these things--but we don't know it. And above all, we should be kind to temps.
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--The Doctor loved Rose, but as he pointed out, he loved her when he was hurt and angry and *needed* to love her. It's possible that now that she's been gone for a while, he doesn't really need her the same way (decent of him not to say so). Rose really couldn't be a permanent small-c companion for the Doctor, being mortal and all, but she and the humanish Doctor are much more on a level.
I also couldn't help wondering if he knew that leaving Rose again was the way to go, knowing that he has Dr. River Song in the future. But I'm not sure when Dr. River Song arrives--perhaps Rose is long dead by then--so maybe that's not an issue.--
I doubt that the Doctor was thinking of Dr. River Song as a reason to give up Rose. I do think it's true that his feelings were probably less strong due to time having passed. It may not be that the Doctor thought he no longer needed Rose, but that he felt the humanish Doctor needed her more. He also obviously didn't want the humanish Doctor around and having Rose keep an eye on him and help him to become a better man was a good solution to that problem. Otherwise, it's a bit hard for me to understand his willingness to leave her; although, I also sensed sorrow over it from him. I read a blurb about David Tennant having said that the goal was to give the impression both that Rose was ending up with and losing the man that she loved. It seems they were very successful in that aspect of it.
--What struck me in this episode wasn't so much Doctor as Donna. I felt awful for her. Despite a few remarkable traits--a fantastic memory, superfast typing, and being very tough and stubborn--Donna is depicted as a very average sort of person. She's not dumb, but not smart. Although she has some great skills and talents, they're not the kind that get you a lot of acclaim in our world. She's a bit obnoxious. So seeing her get dialed back to her former self, unaware of all she had done, made me very sad. --
I didn't address this in my main post because I'm not sure what to think about it. I know that a lot of people felt that it was truly a horrible thing to have happened to her, but is it horrible if she doesn't know what she's missed? Unlike some of the other companions (Sarah Jane & Rose come to mind), she won't miss the life she had with the Doctor.
By the end of his time with her, it seems that the Doctor understood that Donna truly felt she was worthless and I appreciated his words to her mother on that subject. How the Doctor knew, I'm uncertain, since it was the humanish Doctor who had that realization due to his connection with Donna. But, perhaps Donna will still be able to realize the aspect of herself that was so apparent during her time with the Doctor, especially with encouragement from her family.
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I think this is a good point. Last night after talking with you, Clair, for a bit, I was thinking on the way home about Riversong, and how the aloneness he's experiencing/expressing at the end of the episode might just make him seek out River Song, the one connection he knows is in his future. And he did start to love her at the end of that episode, I think, so that would help with the easing of his love for Rose, whereas the Human Doctor knows that River Song is in the Time Lord Doctor's future, not his. He won't have that love in the future, and he knows that, too.
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I do have to say that I felt very sad for him at the end, too. There wasn't even the usual cliffhanger for the Christmas special to distract him from his solitude. (Although I found the cliffhanger somewhat jarring and out of place at the end of "Doomsday", I don't think it would have been so here. However, perhaps it's dramatically better to leave the Doctor like that because it again emphasizes his great lonliness, which seemed to be the point.)
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I get the feeling that as long as he doesn't know he's screwing up the timeline, he's not screwing up the timeline.
But on thinking on it further, didn't River Song say something about how he was so much younger than she'd ever seen him before? That means he waits a while, I suppose. But the good news is, it means he gets to be the Doctor for quite a while, too!
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Yes, she did say that; however it's not something she was able to tell before studying his face closely, perhaps looking into his eyes. That suggests he doesn't superficially look much older when she meets him, but other episodes have suggested that the Doctor doesn't age very quickly, so he might be much older and superficially look the same. Also, the Doctor can travel around for any length of time between series. Who knows how long he'd been on his own before he met up with Donna, for example? So, they could do a storyline with River Song right away while time has passed for the Doctor off-screen...which means that David Tennant won't necessarily continue to play the Doctor for that much longer. (Though, I hope he does! :) )
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One thing I keep thinking about is River Song's reaction to meeting Donna. I think it was sort of, "OH! You're Donna Noble!?!" And Donna was wondering from her reaction what happened to her. Now, of course, we know what all of that was about. But another thing about it was that clearly the Doctor talked about Donna (and it would seem with some frequency, intensity, or length, based on River Song's reaction). That could argue that Donna's story is fresh in his mind. Or if River Song doesn't happen soon, then it means that this is an incident that stays with him for quite a while with some intensity. Clearly it has enough impact on the Doctor that he shares it with River Song, and it has enough impact on her to make her react strongly when meeting Donna Noble.
It also means that, while many people know of Donna Noble's impact on the universe, River Song is the one person who knows about Donna's impact when she's interacting with Donna and can give her the respect she deserves to her face, even if Donna doesn't know why. Not that River Song does much in regards to this, but I just like that she meets Donna knowing Donna's potential while Donna still has that potential.
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I think it was pretty obvious that Donna's mom was horrid to her. The Doctor doesn't always pick up on that kind of thing, but it's not impossible that Donna might have mentioned it at some point.
Yeah, I think that was the point with Donna: Any of us could be the most important person in the universe, and we just have to find a way to live up to that. But watching her rudely blow off the Doctor for a loud and shallow phone conversation didn't give me a lot of hope for her. (Although it did cement that he's not Donna's type.)
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Exactly. I just listened to some of the comments of the people involved in this production from Doctor Who Confidential regarding the scene on the beach between the 2 Doctors and Rose. It made me feel a bit better about my reaction to the other Doctor:
David Tennant: "There’s part of her that feels very comfortable and very attracted to this new Doctor because he is the same guy. But, clearly he’s not. And, clearly she’s saying ‘goodbye’ to this other man that she’s been in love with….For the Doctor himself, there’s just another heartbreak and another tragedy and he’s back on Bad Wolf Bay where he last experienced this. You know, he’s saying ‘goodbye’ again and he’s bidding farewell again and this time it’s closing forever and there’s no going back. And, in gifting her this other Doctor, he’s not really allowing himself to go back either."
Julie Gardner: "So, again she takes it back to the first time they were at Bad Wolf Bay and, of course, our Doctor can’t say it. And, why can’t he say it? He can’t say it because he can’t ever be completely human and he has to be in pain. I think the Doctor’s most compelling and most heroic when he is having to sacrifice things, when he’s having to be under pressure. And, it’s terrible that he knows all of that and he knows he's going to be alone, but he loves this woman so much that he gives her the chance to have a life…And, of course, he’s saying ‘I love you,’ of course he is. Even though we don’t hear it, of course he’s saying ‘I love you.’"
Billie Piper: "I always pictured that scene with that moment in “Beauty and the Beast” when Belle kisses the Beast and he turns into a man, and you’re really happy that he’s human, but you’re also really upset that the Beast is gone. And, I always felt like that at the end. I don’t know where I’m going with this, but I always felt like she shouldn’t be kissing that number 2 and also he’s not the same. It’s all a bit weird."
Russell T. Davies: "I think it’s such a tragedy that the woman you love gets someone who looks exactly like you. And who is just as good as you in every single way and you’ve got to admit that you’re happy for them and that’s as good as it gets and you’ve got to turn your back and go."
--Yeah, I think that was the point with Donna: Any of us could be the most important person in the universe, and we just have to find a way to live up to that. But watching her rudely blow off the Doctor for a loud and shallow phone conversation didn't give me a lot of hope for her. (Although it did cement that he's not Donna's type.)--
You're definitely on the same wavelength as the people who make the show. Catherine Tate said much the same thing in her comments in Doctor Who Confidential.
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I know what you mean. I think a lot of his has to do with the fact that, with nine and ten, there is only one bodie. But with ten and double!ten there are two, so it feels more like identical twins, that while they look the same have differents pasts, feelings, emotions, ect, and therefore like two different people. But that just may be the way I see it.
I know that a lot of people felt that it was truly a horrible thing to have happened to her, but is it horrible if she doesn't know what she's missed? Unlike some of the other companions (Sarah Jane & Rose come to mind), she won't miss the life she had with the Doctor.
This is obviously based just on the way you would view this sort of a situation, but I think this sort of thing would be worse. Donna's grandfather really hit the idea home when he mentioned 'all the wonderful things she's done.' Sarah Jane and Rose have lost the Doctor, and they know it, but they can also look back on everything they've done with him and remember the good times and the way their lives have changed because of him. Donna can't, and she may never finally realize her full potential again.
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Yes, that's a good point. The real Time Lord Doctor is still there...on the other hand, the copy does have his emotions, memories, and past. He should be an exact replica, but he doesn't seem to be...because he's part human? Should that matter?
As an aside, I think the (real) Doctor does tell Rose that he needs her in a roundabout sort of way. He says something to the effect of "He needs you. That's very me."
--Donna can't, and she may never finally realize her full potential again.--
That's really the part about it that's most sad - that she may never realize her full potential.
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