Obedience

[karcy]

Elder Porphyrios on obedience:

I can't give you an example of what real obedience is. It's not that we have a discussion about the virtue of obedience and then I say to you, 'go and do a somersault' and then you obey. That's not obedience. You need to be entirely carefree and not thinking at all about the matter of obedience, and then suddenly you

Comments

[mysterious_joy]

I think obedience means a listening, receptive attitude. The german term for obedience is "Gehorsam", which means listening to what you're told. It's mostly a matter of talking right with other people, including listening to them and putting into practice what you've heard. But there's the intermediate state of thinking about what you've been told. And that's not counter to the virtue of obedience. There is no "pure obedience" in which you don't think anymore. The inbetween state of thinking of what you heard is important too and allows you to make an action into your own. Being entirely obedient in the sense of always immediately positively responding to requests and orders would turn you into a drone, and I don't think that's what God wants. And the real point of obedience is not the obedient action but instead a wholesome reception of the entirety of what someone tells you. So when some people say to their children, how dare you talk back to me, that's entirely wrong. There must be a lively dialogue. God doesn't want to be our

[karcy]

I think we can both agree that God is not looking for robots

[mysterious_joy]

Sorry Catalina, but I don't understand that at all. A monk who moves stones around is showing obedience in the sense of a godly value? You must be kidding. Are we some kind of wild horse whose will must be broken? Really, this is making me feel very uncomfortable

[karcy]

Hmm. One of the things I am concerned about when I post stuff like these is that many people can misinterpret the ascetic life.

In your case, you've had continual problems with imagining God as a very harsh, judgmental, cruel individual who will condemn yourself or your loved ones to eternal torture and pain. And I don't want to encourage that image of God in you, either. When an Orthodox becomes a monastic, this is not what they believe.

To understand what the monks are doing, think of it less as 'obedience to an angry God' and more as 'self-disciplineFor an example, do you get up at a certain time every morning? Do you try to get to some place on time? Do you brush your teeth

[mysterious_joy]

Ok, Catalina, it's just a form of christianity that I couldn't take up myself. I'm just trying to get by and believe in God and be acceptable. Asceticism doesn't fit in there for me. I think after 3 days at Athos or some similar place would make me really upset at the faith life. I guess I rather want to write poetry and do my stuff.

I'm not even sure I buy this idea of purity through discipline. It's like learning a 10 page poem by rote ... is that really purity or am I making myself into a trained monkey? Purity is for all, not just for monks, and it's given by the Holy Spirit. In Barclay's Commentary it says that perfection and purity is just about being fit for a task. IE, a screwdriver is called perfect in greek when it's fit for the job. Doesn't have to be the most expensive model or the most modern one or a screwdriver with internet access.

[karcy]

I definitely agree that not everyone is called to the ascetic life. What I was hoping to achieve with this is to help us re-evaluate some things we night be doing as non-ascetics though: for example, whether we are working or doing our duties with a lot of personal grousing, and think that we are being 'okay' just because we did them when in our hearts we are being discontent.

Of course, this is the writing of a monk -- don't confuse it with being on par with the Gospels or anything. I find it useful for me, but if it hinders your walk instead of help, just dismiss it :).

[martiancyclist]

The weird arbitrary-seeming obediences are generally given early in monkhood, particularly to novices, sometimes to disabuse them of any romantic notions of a life of prayer unconnected to worldly concerns (monks need clean toilets too), sometimes to startle them into listening, sometimes for reasons only apparent to the abbot. But they're all given specifically and individually, according to what the abbot thinks is most needed.

I also agree, Daniel, that you don't seem to be the best fit for monastic life at this point (from what I can tell over the Internet, and with the caveat that people change).