The Number of the Beast

[mintogrubb]

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.

Comments

[flipao_maria]

1) My belief is that the Sea Beast is imperial Rome and in particular the Emperor Nero. Especially when it says "the whole world was astonished and followed the beast" and "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" Those phrases are just reminiscent of the fact that Rome had a lot of power and it likely saw itself as the greatest empire on the earth. Nero made war against the saints, that is he was the first imperial authority to persecute Christians on a massive scale.

2) Furthermore, I believe that the Earth Beast, or the second beast represents the priesthood of the Roman imperial cult, which required obedience and worship to the Emperor. (and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast)
What is the ' mark of the beast' without which no one can buy or sell?

3) Those who worshipped the emperor received a certificate (libellus) or mark of approval. In the reign of Emperor Decius, those who did not possess the certificate of sacrifice to Caesar could not pursue trades, a prohibition that conceivably goes back to Nero.

4) 666 is a cryptogram for Nero. Nero's name in Hebrew, Nrwn Qsr, adds up to the number 666.

[raphaelanwar]

I agree.

[mintogrubb]

Ditto - but what ios with this 666 talents of king solomon in the OT? does this have any bearing as well?

[raphaelanwar]

Possibly. The writer of Revelation was undoubtedly drawing on many sources and possibly intended to allude to something by echoing the previous texts.

[flipao_maria]

I don't think that there is. Maybe I am wrong. Solomon reigned for 40 years, the sea (first) beast reigned for 42 months (3 1/2 years). Solomon was worthy of building the temple of God, which implies that he was on good terms with the Lord. The sea beast opens his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

To me, the description of the beast of the sea and the description of Solomon don't match up.

[pastorlenny]

The implication is not that Solomon is not the beast of the sea. The issue is "foreign gold" and its seductive power.

[mintogrubb]

I thought that it was foreign wives who turned Solomon away from the Lord.
Or was the gold part of the deal?

But even so, 'foreign gold', in the Christian era? How does that work out?

[pastorlenny]

What Christian era?

[mintogrubb]

Sorry - I am using terminology that perhaps they don't use Stateside, or outside the JWs.

I am used to referring to the years before the birth of Christ as BC, or BCE (Before the Christian Era.)

The time from Christ's birth until the present is sometimes refereed to as 'the Christian era', or the 'Common Era' - the time we have in common with Christ.
hence Julius Caesar led an invasion of Britain in 55 BC, and this year is 2008 CE.

The Latin equivalent is AD. 'Anno Domini', 'in the year of our Lord'.
So, whether you put this prophecy as being about the present day, or the 1st/ 2nd century CE, the question is 'how does it fit?' How does 'foriegn gold' help to identify the Antichrist?

[pastorlenny]

I know what the "Christian Era" means. But it's not a scriptural term. Does the West serve God or Mammon?

[mintogrubb]

Well, Jesus said that 'His Kingdom was no part of this world'.

This is why the URC is adamant that there should be a separation of church and state, and why I am in the URC.

So, am I right in assuming that when certain states or nations call themselves 'A Christian country', that *this* is what is meant by ' foreign Gold'?
That the dues that places like England and the USA pays to Christianity - this is the equivalent, or mabe I should say the meaning behind that figure of 666?

Because , if so, the beat was made up of different parts of different animals, and these animals, if we go back to Daniel , were symbolic cf certain world powers. Wow - that's amazing!!

[pastorlenny]

Well, there are no Christian countries. And I think you and I will have difficulty discussing this because of our basic semantic, rhetorical, and hermaneutical disconnects. But you're getting warmer. :)

[mintogrubb]

Well, there are no Christian countries.

Oh, I am with you there (I think).
I mean , we in england have a State church, and prayers are said at the start of the days business in the House of commons. there are even bishops sitting on the legislature - but that doesn't mean that England is a Christian country.

Not when we a re supporting places like China and Indonesia, and keeping corrupt dictators in power. now when we are backing the war in Iraq, and are taking a soft line on multinationals companies who... well , you get the drift.

Like, this goes back to "foreign influence"? Like it was in Solomon's time? OOOkay!

[pastorlenny]

You might also want to think in terms of the so-called "prosperity gospel" and the dominionists. The American "evangelical right" has a very interesting take on how money and political power can be used in support of what they might be seduced into thinking is the Kingdom.

[mintogrubb]

Prosperity gospel - like the idea that you 'name it and claim it'?
basically, god wants you to have this stuff, and if you are right with Him , then you get to have a Cadillac in front of your mansion - am I on the right lines here?

But the dominionists - I have heard the word used, chiefly by americans in other forums. I would not like to define what it means though, or say who exactly these guys are.

pastor, it stikes me that in the epistles, i think it was Paul saying to timothy
" watch your life and your doctrine".

My 2 cents is that what we *do* is most important. it's about how we treat each other, how we treat people in our church and peoplein our town who are not Christians.
And yet, the practical side of things has to be backed by a sound theoretical basis.
a good life is based on sound doctrine and leads to making the right choices. So what we *believe* as well as what we do is equally important.

there are a lot of vwerses in proverbs that talk about the righteous being blessed and having material as well as spiritual prosperity - but the fact is that the OT prophets still had an awful lot to say about the plight of the oppressed and the marginalised.

And not many TV evangelists talk about this, from what i hear...

[pastorlenny]

Doctrine is critical. This is why I keep trying to get you to focus on the Christ. How we treat people only makes sense in this context. Imagine a young man helping an elderly neighbor by getting them some grocerise and shoveling their walk when it snows. The neighbor is grateful and thanks this young man. The young man then replies, "No problem. Would you like to come to my church tonight?" The elderly person accepts. At the church that evening, the preacher explains why Adolf Hitler was the Messiah and why the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem must be completed.

Wasn't that a nice young man?