You don't believe in Mary? Then who was that lady that the Gospel mentions giving birth to Jesus?
It seems the way for you to handle Catholics who believe in the intercession of the saints, and especially Mary, is for you to gain a proper understanding of that belief first. Then you can decide whether they're right or wrong. And if you decide they're right, you can decide whether or not it really matters to you whether Catholics view Mary's role differently than Protestants do. Sadly, you seem to think that we Catholics don't believe that salvation comes from Christ, that Christ died on the cross for us, or that it was Christ who was resurrected from the dead. And as far as devotion to Christ, who is the only religion who celebrates the true Body and Blood of Christ? Yeah, it's the Catholics.
Anything Catholics believe regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary (by the way, Martin Luther called her this, too) is nothing more or nothing less than pointing a way towards a more intimate relationship with Christ. We believe that even after her death Mary serves as a wonderful means for Christians to grow their relationship with her Son. I would also argue that it is precisely because we make room for the mother of Jesus in our hearts, just as Christ asked John to do from the cross, that we are able to have an even stronger relationship with Christ. Find a Catholic who has a truly strong devotion to Mary, and you have found a Christian who has a deeply profound relationship with Christ Jesus. We constantly hear her whispering in our hearts, "Do whatever he tells you," just as she did to the servants at Cana.
It is fine to disagree with Catholic devotion to Mary and to the saints. It makes me sad when that disagreement is based on such an egregious misunderstanding of our belief that you would go so far as to question whether or not we are Christian. Devotion to Mary goes back to the earliest Church fathers, it is not some practice that Catholics made up, but it was handed down as part of the Christian faith.
I also have never been able to understand why many Protestants think it is acceptable to ask their friends to pray for them (and we see tons and tons of prayer requests in this community, which is beautiful), and yet somehow think it's blasphemous to ask Jesus' own mother to pray for us? Seriously, that baffles me.
While there are some outliers Catholics accept the authority of the Papacy and have a single hierarchy. Orthodox have a completely separate hierarchy (different ones for different ethnic groups - although the vast majority of groups are in communion with each other and respect each other's Primate's decisions.) and do not take the Pope as the authority of their Churches. Catholics allow for Orthodox to take communion; however, Orthodox are restricted from taking communion in a Catholic church (there is an extenuating circumstances clause - but I don't remember what it is). In addition the Orthodox church does not recognize the sacraments (other than Baptism) of a Catholic church (there are varient views of Marriage as well, but. . . ). There are also clear doctrinal differences. For these reasons the Orthodox does not share communion with the Catholic and thus they are not the same religious group. Both (as well as most protestants) use the creed which states that they are catholic (small c), but that is not the same.
Well, I understood all of that. But I thought there was a distinction between Catholic and Roman Catholic. In other words, Eastern Catholics are still Catholic, but not Roman Catholics. Russian Orthodox, I thought, were Catholic but not Roman Catholic. I thought Catholic (with the big C) referred to all those who have a valid apostolic succession of the priesthood, whereas Roman Catholic was those who respect the primacy of Rome. Is this a correct understanding?
I have never seen in modern doctrine or in common use any Orthodox refer themselves as Catholic or any Catholic refer to an Orthodox that way. In modern day Catholic refers mostly to Roman Catholic. There are also Eastern Catholics who accept the primacy of the Pope as their spiritual leader, but do not follow the worship service style of Vatican II (and some other things, you'd have to ask an Eastern Catholic or someone more schooled in comparative religion than I am about that). They call themselves Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. There are also some break off groups who refer to themselves as Catholic, but not Roman Catholic.
I think the issue is one of terms and capital letters. When I see Catholic, I think "Those Churches in union with the Holy See". When I see catholic, I think Catholic + some Anglican and some Lutheran. When I see orthodox, I think of a lot of groups, but when I see Orthodox, I think "Orthodox Christians".
Well, my mistake was that when I saw Catholic with a capital C, I thought it referred to Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and Orthodox Christians. As the song goes, two out of three ain't bad :)
I've been told that due to some court cases in Pennsylvania between Ruthenian Catholics and Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox, the legal meaning of "Greek Catholic" in the United States is "Russian Orthodox", and I've heard the name "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church" many times.
I know that the church my family went to broke into two at the time that the Western Catholic Church imposed their tradition of the celibate priesthood on the Eastern Catholic Church. I have an Great Uncle who is Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox while my Grandfather (his brother) is Ruthenian Catholic, yet they both went to the same church growing up.
Eh, the east/west division constantly breaks my heart, as does the Catholic/Orthodox division among my own people.
But the Orthodox reject the scholastic definition of transubstantiation, which in effect makes the Orthodox and the Lutheran positions very similar: "It's the very body and blood of Christ alright, but don't try to explain it: it's a mystery!"
I still think that the fact it is the "very body and blood of Christ" makes the Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran (and some Anglican) positions all the same in spirit if not exactly the same in scholastic definition, and distinctly different from the Calvinist and Zwingli positions. If I had to group them at a basic level I would put Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, and Anglican together because they all believe in some form that the bread and wine *are* the body and blood of Christ.
That's my personal view too, but - funny thing! - the more Catholic I get, the more tolerant I get towards "those other protestants". Dave Armstrong on his blog points out, that the real big intolerance over doctrinal differences is among the various strains of protestantism. On the other hand, that intolerance mostly is over the sacraments. And sacraments are important! So, yeah...
It seems the way for you to handle Catholics who believe in the intercession of the saints, and especially Mary, is for you to gain a proper understanding of that belief first. Then you can decide whether they're right or wrong. And if you decide they're right, you can decide whether or not it really matters to you whether Catholics view Mary's role differently than Protestants do. Sadly, you seem to think that we Catholics don't believe that salvation comes from Christ, that Christ died on the cross for us, or that it was Christ who was resurrected from the dead. And as far as devotion to Christ, who is the only religion who celebrates the true Body and Blood of Christ? Yeah, it's the Catholics.
Anything Catholics believe regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary (by the way, Martin Luther called her this, too) is nothing more or nothing less than pointing a way towards a more intimate relationship with Christ. We believe that even after her death Mary serves as a wonderful means for Christians to grow their relationship with her Son. I would also argue that it is precisely because we make room for the mother of Jesus in our hearts, just as Christ asked John to do from the cross, that we are able to have an even stronger relationship with Christ. Find a Catholic who has a truly strong devotion to Mary, and you have found a Christian who has a deeply profound relationship with Christ Jesus. We constantly hear her whispering in our hearts, "Do whatever he tells you," just as she did to the servants at Cana.
It is fine to disagree with Catholic devotion to Mary and to the saints. It makes me sad when that disagreement is based on such an egregious misunderstanding of our belief that you would go so far as to question whether or not we are Christian. Devotion to Mary goes back to the earliest Church fathers, it is not some practice that Catholics made up, but it was handed down as part of the Christian faith.
I also have never been able to understand why many Protestants think it is acceptable to ask their friends to pray for them (and we see tons and tons of prayer requests in this community, which is beautiful), and yet somehow think it's blasphemous to ask Jesus' own mother to pray for us? Seriously, that baffles me.
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Don't forget our Orthodox brothers and sisters. They, too, celebrate the true Body and Blood of Our Lord.
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I know that the church my family went to broke into two at the time that the Western Catholic Church imposed their tradition of the celibate priesthood on the Eastern Catholic Church. I have an Great Uncle who is Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox while my Grandfather (his brother) is Ruthenian Catholic, yet they both went to the same church growing up.
Eh, the east/west division constantly breaks my heart, as does the Catholic/Orthodox division among my own people.
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I still think that the fact it is the "very body and blood of Christ" makes the Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran (and some Anglican) positions all the same in spirit if not exactly the same in scholastic definition, and distinctly different from the Calvinist and Zwingli positions. If I had to group them at a basic level I would put Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, and Anglican together because they all believe in some form that the bread and wine *are* the body and blood of Christ.
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