I love this blogger.

[chibi_evil]

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/12/how-to-be-an-ally-with-atheists.html

she puts words on the page in funny and informative order.  And says stuff that needs to be shouted from the

Comments

[passer_hedera]

...There are bad atheists, and unless you're going to start denying those people the right to call themselves atheists and reject the validity of their belief system under atheism (which you'd have a very hard time doing, all things considered), it might be better if things got a little divided. Because while the systematic oppression of non-belief in our society is absolutely wrong, you don't fix it in any way by claiming that you can't distinguish between atheists in terms of positive and negatives at the same time that you argue that they're all different. Having a term like "fundamentalist" used might make you feel uncomfortably associated with religion, but it is a valid term in some very specific instances (unless you are really going to argue that atheism is without definition--which they utterly undermine by their statements as to what it's not, which is a way to define something, albeit more open than the other way--that definition is subject to fundamental interpretations, just like any other).

And it does have the added bonus of being something that the religious in this country can understand: "that person uses the name of my group to define their beliefs, but their beliefs do not reflect my beliefs, and they are, generally, an asshole."

All groups of people attract their own unique brand of shithead, and if you go and try denying the existence of those people, the groups that look down on you are going to have an easier time holding on to their ignorances. I guess a decent comparison would be GLBTA groups and NAMBLA. You can't deny that NAMBLA is pro gay rights, and you can easily see the harm they do to the community as a whole my linking gay rights and pedophilia. To be effective, you really do need to say "I know these people exist, but they do not define my community nor does my community at large support or believe what they believe," even if that's a divide you'd rather not have (because all advocates help in some way).

If I were to say "That person is a bad/fundamentalist atheist because they won't shut up about their beliefs," I would acknowledge your right to kick me in the head and call me a bigot in a heartbeat. But I really do not have a problem with the statement "That person is a bad/fundamentalist atheist because she/he passionately believes that there is an absolute proof of the non-existence of the divine and has openly and forcefully asserted that all evil in the world is the result of me and the absolute invalidity and stupidity of my beliefs, and actively labels herself as an atheist." And, having met that person, and had her call me dirty names because I wouldn't concede to her "science", I would really like the right and ability to distinguish her from all of the lovely atheists I know. I don't think that's wrong of me.

[passer_hedera]

You have the right to call anybody anything you want. there are very few people who would dispute your ability as well.

Calling them a bad atheist because they are a bad person and a shitty debater is fine. maybe not to greta, but there are quite a few folks who would completely agree with you and tell greta she's full of shit. Greta's a little more...uhm...mired in the language of activism then i am. Hell, the atheist community is pretty deviod of a lot of the activist jargon used by feminism and LGBT rights groups. there is beginning to be some crossover but it's not there yet. Bad atheist just has connotations of being "loud and uppity" to many folks. I'll probably stick to calling them a bad person (actually i'll probably use stronger language. i swear lots). But i won't agrue that they are also irrational (which in my opinion DOES make CAC a bad atheist...but that's where i draw the line. greta doesn't like the baggage attached to the Good vs Bad dictomy)

the atheist community is....really not as cohesive as all that. you won't get shit from most people about...well...anything but being religious with a hammer, a shitty debater, or irrational. Think of the atheist community as a collection of beligerant cats, all absolutely sure they know how best to get things done, and willing to debate at the top of thier lungs, happily and incessantly about it, without actually doing anything 'cuase they are having too much fun in the debate.

Greta happily acknowledges that she doesn't speak for anybody but herself, and is more then happpy to carry on really well thought out debates in her comments from everybody. She does make pretty rants, and i don't always agree with her--i do think she's a pretty good starting point for a lot of stuff. particularly her "Atheists and Anger" post is a good one to send to folks who aren't quite sure why atheists are kinda fed up with stuff (i do think it's a bit long, but that's because she's very thourough. exhaustingly so). I read her because i agree with....about 80% of her posts, though i think she's got a SERIOUS case of rose-colored glasses about the community. which is where her good/bad atheists thing comes in.

The community in general, however doesn't really agree on much except that we're pretty sure that God is as likely to exist as Zeus or Cuthullu, or the flying spagetti monster.

erm. i forgot to sign in.

[chibi_evil]

i think we're haing our own little debate here. hiya!

[passer_hedera]

From the point #6 (and I might be drawing more in from the 10 Myths article she linked to--I realize I could be crossing them) it seemed very clear that she was telling me not to.

I know the community pretty well...I guess my reaction is primarily a result of the idea that this is a good way to teach a person about advocacy, or to explain atheist's feelings to the rest of the world. Because it's really, really not. It's a good way to alienate, confuse, and create situations where people can say "But I know you're wrong, because I dealt with those people you call mythical, or because you don't seem to understand what religious means and so you're making these incorrect statements about how you're different, etc."

I suppose it's best put this way: This is a great blog to read and go "Yeah, that pisses me off!" and feel less alone. But these are not good arguments to take into a debate, because they are 1) overstated to a point that they become actually incorrect (see myths v. stereotypes), and 2) draw from a large number of misconceptions about what religion is or how diverse belief in a divinity is (some believers don't have a Religion either, though they do have belief, and can be fundamentalist about those beliefs) in order to make the counter statements (see the discussion of "fundamentalist," in my other comment, for example--while using Fundamentalist--the proper noun which has a historical definition that, for the record, is a sect of Christianity infinitely smaller in population than the atheists in this country--is incorrect, fundamentalist (lower case) is not, unless you're going to make the argument that you can't have fundamentalists who are Islamic, or Subsets of Buddhism, or even Baptist or Evangelical, or make the argument that disbelief is somehow upheld over belief as a more valid rational thought, which I would take great exception to).

Also, just fyi--those first three comments on your blog are all one piece, if that clarifies anything I'm saying--LJ won't let you post more than 4500 characters in a comment, so I had to split them initially. The line breaks are somewhat odd but what I got stuck with to get it down to three--might make the overall arguments clearer

[chibi_evil]

heh. that could be the case. I'm pretty entrenched in the atheist blogosphere, so i'm a bad judge of where to begin--especially since i don't come from a place of ever having been religious. i'll take your word that she's not a good starting point. or this blog post isn't, at least.

I kinda wish someone would make a Aheism 101 blog similar to the Feminism101 blog. I'm not the person to do it--I happily admit that i come from a place of VERY little understanding of a relgious worldview. it confuses me. friendlyatheist might be better, but again. i have no idea.