it's spam my flist day
Check out my new user info. logansrogue is just brilliant.
I want to change to a P&P mood theme, which I have saved on my computer, but I'm too lazy to load all those pics into photobucket.
( Small Ron rant - don't read if your a Ron fan girl )
I want to change to a P&P mood theme, which I have saved on my computer, but I'm too lazy to load all those pics into photobucket.
( Small Ron rant - don't read if your a Ron fan girl )
*backs away from teh keyboard*
but um... damn.
You don't know me. I was just lurking around LJ and just stumbled across this and you gave fair warning and everything so I really should just... run away.... and.. Argh... I will, soon.
But have you ever heard of a defeated perfectionist? that's Ron. Ron has to have it all or nothing. If he can't have it all it isn't even worth trying for. Hence the reason he never once tried to outdo his brothers or Harry. And why Quidditch was such a grueling expereince for him. Does this make him pathetic? Sure, in the eyes of some. To me it very human and conflicted and makes for a good story.
About him complaining about being poor. Well, maybe he should complain. The twins seem to be the exception to the rule when it comes to Weasley's making money. Never, did the books say that Bill, Charlie or even Percy were better off financially with their jobs. In fact the very nature of Bill and Charlie's jobs seem to be socially out of the norm. Bill who works for goblins in a soceity where goblins are veiw as less than wizards and Charlie who works with dangerous and illegal animals on remote reservations in Romania. I'm thinking there is a glass-ceiling where the Weasley's are concerned, and Ron is being to figure this out and beginning to question the whys and should bes. And really why should *anyone* be poor?
Also, as of Gof he was what 14/15. I know I couldn't get a job at that age. And when would he have gotten the chance seeing as he was holed up all summer at the Grimwauld Place.
Yeah, and Neville and Harry so not normal. Now, Seamus very normal. The twins also very normal but desperate to get away from their mother and out of school. Ron oh so very normal but thrust into situations that demands he grow up far before he is ready.
*runs away*
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And in my opinion, this is somthing he mostly demands from himself. When it comes to his family and friends... well, it is my belief that he is very forgiving. :)
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The fact of the matter is that as of the last book the wizarding world is on the brink of war. And no one has more to loose than Ron. In the next few books, it is probable that at the worst Ron might have to bury eight people. At the best, perhaps a few. I don't think anyone seriously believes that all Weasley's will come out of the war safe and alive. Furthermore, because this story is from Harry's point of veiw and and so much of the wizarding world is embodied in the Weasleys for Harry it is safe to assume that the Weasley's will be the stage in JKR acts out most of the Wizarding Worlds' woes. She already does so to an extent. War messes with people, ages them. Even the threat of that kind of loss changes people. So yeah, I can almost assure a 'Road to Damascus' experience. I might even go so far to say that it might be Harry it experiencing it. I wouldn't eliminate the idea of Harry waking up one morning and realizing he doesn't recognize his best friend anymore.
Personally, I can't correlate the idea of Ron not being important to plot with the extreme emphasis JKR has already put on the trio's realtionship. To go back on that now would seem like a lie. But like you, I have noticed Ron's increasing lack of page time, the lack of maturity, the lack of involvement and would also conclude that is purposeful. It gives that 'Road to Damascus' experience a lot more bang.
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I hit on this in my comment below by stating that Ron has nothing he excels at, but more pertaining to charactaristics. Your two examples of awards (for lack of a better term) that he has received by default are more tangible examples. It does seem that JKR can't give Ron anything outright, doesn't it? He has earned nothing on his own merit, not once in the series. Why would she do that to a character if it wasn't for a greater purpose? Otherwise, she's just writing a pathetic character that everyone wants to succeed because they all feel so sorry for him, not because of any merit or outstanding ability on his part.
I had completely forgotten about the Seeker position. Wouldn't it be interesting if Harry is Quidditch Captain, the other Seeker candidate doesn't have a conflict this year and Harry really wants the other guy on the team. That would answer JKR's comment about whether or not the Captain wants Ron on the team, huh?
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Actually, I have no qualms with this. Perfectly fine with me. I think it would mess Harry up, though. Makes for good reading all the same.
It's been rattling around in my mind just why it was JKR has been building a list of things that Ron doesn't know about that would severely hurt his feelings/confidence/etc.
Well, actually I don't think Ron would be all that surprised. He knew he was crap at quidditch hence the reason he tried quit and save whatever was left of his pride. He knew he didn't deserve that badge as witnessed when he openly gawked at receiving it. I'm not saying that it wouldn't hurt. I'm sure it would. Heck, I'm sure it did when Hermione and everyone else was pretty open about Harry deserving the badge. Just that maybe he half thinks that already. I'm hoping that these things will show Ron that having things fall into your lap isn't nearly as sweet as aquiring things you know you've worked for and deserve. And if he is in that place when Harry offers up that knowledge (and omg he better not cuz I really don't want to hate you Harry) maybe he will be able to handle it. Um, I think that in many ways that stuff was also for the reader. Maybe even more so than Ron. Because if there is going to be bang... well, this is sorta preparation isn't. I mean right up to the end of OoTP JKR continued to go out of her way to put Ron in his place..... what is it 52 days now? *wibbles*
Now, this isolation could also serve to enable that Road to Damascus development to take place off-page, this is true but it could also be an exploitable fraccture in the trio which a close-watching enemy might note and thusly aim to exploit.
Well, personally I believe that the developement could go on right under Harry's nose before something really serious shakes him up and makes him see it. Which would be bang right there. I also think that the relationship between the Trio is going to get worse before it gets better. And that assumption involves all *three* of them. All of them are far too secretive and need to learn how to talk to each other again. :( And say, if Hermione were put under Imperio would that be more or less of a bang than say Ron? I would say Hermione.
The story, the grip of a plot, is contained within conflict. Resolve is nice as an ending but a climactic buildup is does not make. But conflict is only as effective as it relates to Harry. Ron isn't the main character. So him finding resolve and a little peace of mind won't take away from the conflict. In fact it might generate it depending on Harry's state of mind. The truth is that there are plently of factors within the trio that can be addressed to provide conflict. There are even more external factors. Ron doesn't have to be unbalanced or unloyal for the readers to be provided with plenty of Harry angst. And the possibility of Ron dying is real one. But it also possible that he'll walk towards that ending with pride in that he chose to stay the course and true hard won resolve and peace of mind. In my mind he deserves as much. *shrugs*
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Ron is a defeated perfectionist? Okay fine. Then. Stop. Complaining. Accept that if you aren't going to try you aren't going to get 'it.' But instead Ron wants to not try then complain about the fact that he never gets anything. He wants to complain about having nothing but he does nothing to make money. You can't tell me there isn't the magical equivalent of mowing lawns. You just can't. Ron doesn't try at anything. He is, in my opinion, a classic example of a loser.
Now, imagine Ron as a 'defeated perfectionist' that owns up to his ways. To look at it another way, imagine Fred and George without the drive. What a great character he'd be. Would he still have flaws? Yep. But, he'd be much more likeable because he would own up to them, accept them and not wallow in the fact that he isn't perfect. There would be no bickering with Hermione; instead he'd shrug his shoulders, let her carry on with her opinions, however misguided they are, but be confident in his own opinion. He wouldn't need to try to make her look stupid to make himself feel better.
Ron oh so very normal but thrust into situations that demands he grow up far before he is ready.
Can you give an example of this? I've seen no evidence of Ron maturing nor can I remember him 'growing' from any of them.
I do have to give JKR credit for creating such a sympathetic character. He is, by far, the most beloved character in fandom. However, she has given him one, maybe two strengths, and I don't think these are as strong as his fans make them out to be. I'm talking about his bravery and his loyalty. I've never seen Ron go into a dangerous situation alone, like Harry. I haven't seen Hermione do it either, to be fair. But, for bravery to be touted as one of his 'great strengths' there needs to be more evidence of it. As it is, he's followed Harry. He gets his strength and bravery from Harry.
It has been shown, repeatedly, that Ron is loyal to a point. He was hardly loyal to Hermione during the entirety of PoA. Nor was he loyal to Harry when he most needed his best friend in GoF. Then there were his demeaniing, insulting remarks to Hermione during the Yule Ball. Ron is loyal as long as his feelings aren't hurt or it doesn't affect him directly. When he feels slighted, he is looking out for number one.
If JKR is going to create a character like Ron she needs to give him something to be great at. Chess hardly counts. It has played no role since PS. And, unless you are Bobby Fischer, you aren't going to make a mint playing chess. JKR has given Hermione intelligence and loyalty, Harry courage, bravery and quick thinking. Hell, she's even given Neville more bravery than Ron. What does Ron excel at? What sets Ron apart? Nothing. He isn't as brave as Harry. He isn't as loyal as Hermione. He doesn't have as much courage as Neville. He's not even as good at Quidditch as his little sister! I feel sorry for the guy, honestly. JKR has set him up to fail.
I agree with in that Ron hardly has time in two books to develop in such a way that would 'redeem' him. I believe that he has been created to be a catalyst to the plot in some way. I'm not into the 'Ron betraying Harry' theories, although at one time I was. However, Ron is the only character that's been drawn in such a way that it would be difficult for him to get out of a sticky situation if he is on his own. That might be his undoing, and Harry's along with it.
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You sure. Cause there is this dark dank corner I have been eyeing and I just took my pain medication.... Maybe if I focus a little.. *holds her aching jaw*.
Ok, first of all I could soo get lost in the hormonal confusion that is Rupert Michael Grint. Yis, tis bliss and shiny hair.
Right. Thing is if Ron didn't complain, how would we even know he has issues about being poor? Also, it might be possible that JKR was actually going for symapthy when she writes this kind of stuff. Ask any poor person if they ever found any reason not to complain about being poor? If they say yes its more than likely that they are religous. Ask any poor person if the ever felt like the were jipped, cheated, and generally screwed over due to their economic status? Answer will most likely be yes, even among the religous. JKR herself, being poor once upon a time, can relate. Maybe she hoping her readers could too. Make the world a better place and all that jazz. And it isn't like Ron is mouthing off his complaints to everyone that will listen. He doing it amongst friends. Something I think he is entitled too, cuase who else is he suppose to go too.
Maybe there is the magical equivalent to mowing lawns, but that's mudblood work. Eh, sorry. Couldn't resist. Still, he can't legally use magic until he 17 and I'm guessing squibs take care of any manual labor that is available. I think him finding a job would be really hard unless somebody pulled some strings. Molly might not want him working either. You really can't say that Ron's poverty is a result of some chracter flaw. He really is rather helpless in the whole matter. It was something he was born into.
And of course Ron would be better for figuring out that he can *try* and still maintain his dignity. And that there is pride in owning the failures as well as the sucesses. And I'm sure he will. In fact, I think the whole Quidditch thing is symbolic of him coming into his own.
As for Ron being a loser. I like losers. Especially the intelligent ones that could be winning. See Ron is a loser not because is incapable of competing (chess prodigy), but because he refuses to play the game. And why would he? From the very first book, he tells Harry that no matter what he does it doesn't matter cause his brothers did first. Since then not once has tried to out do his brothers. Conceding to them his mother's attention and approval. Despite some serious hangups about Harry's fame, he has never tried to up him nor has fluanted the prefect's badge, his family, or anything else he has that Harry does not, in Harry's face. If anything he thoroughly and completely incorporated Harry into his family as his brother and even to the extent that he conceeded to Harry, as a has done with all his brother's, his mother's attention and approoval. Not once has Ron extended himself in his studies, and why should he when his brother who got twelve newts or something only managed to secure a job where his boss couldn't even be bother remember his name. It's spitting in the face of the establisment. It's giving the finger to the status-quo. It's self -destruction for the sake of protest. I like losers. I think they are brave. And often times they find much nicer and far more interesting things to glory in than sucess.
Ron and Hermione bickering... so not going there.
Ron oh so very normal but thrust into situations that demands he grow up far before he is ready.
I don't remember saying that he matured. Well, he has. But in comparison to Hermione and Harry. Well the isn't much of a comparison is there? I mean I could try, but I'm tired. And it's complicated. As long as he can't say Voldemort... *sighs* Anyways, the situations he places himself in as friend to Harry demands a little more maturity. Something he hasn't yet to supply. But really, it is unfair to ask that of them. And I say them because Ron, Harry, and Hermione shouldn't be have to be concerned about this stuff in the first place. They are 16, kids still. It really is kinda sad.
I think I touched some on my thinking about Ron being de-empahzized in an earlier discussion with gryyfindor fan. Hope you dont' mind this post is far too long already
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What about saving face and pride by trying harder and improving his skills? Instead he wants to give up because it's going to be a challenge. Imagine the ribbing he would have taken from his enemies for quitting. Malfoy would have had a field day. Luckily Angelina didn't allow him. And, he had to work through all of the Weasley is our King stuff to ultimately prevail by doing so well in the last match. He did stick with it, although grudgingly, and suceeded. I only hope that this is the beginning of him seeing that hard work does pay off and that a little bit of effort will lead to great rewards.
With that said, in HBP if he is met with an obstacle, say competition for his position, and reverts back to his defeatist attitude, I'll be extremely disappointed.
In regard to the Prefect Badge - a person with any pride, that knew he didn't deserve the honor and that everyone thought so, would have taken the job seriously and tried to prove that he did deserve it. From what we saw, he complained about it, didn't stand up to his brothers or at least back Hermione up, he used it as a power tool over his dorm mates and he didn't even know who can and cannot take away points. I don't respect those actions at all. If you are going to do a job do it right. If you don't want the job, then give it up. Don't keep it for the 'honor.' There is someone else out there that wants the responsibility and would take it seriously.
Maybe there is the magical equivalent to mowing lawns, but that's mudblood work. Eh, sorry. Couldn't resist. Still, he can't legally use magic until he 17 and I'm guessing squibs take care of any manual labor that is available. I think him finding a job would be really hard unless somebody pulled some strings. Molly might not want him working either. You really can't say that Ron's poverty is a result of some chracter flaw. He really is rather helpless in the whole matter. It was something he was born into.
It seems to me that students are about on par with squibs during the summer with the no magic restriction. And what's wrong with manual labor? Why not have a degnoming service? They helped Mrs. Weasley clean Grimmauld Place without magic. I'm sure there is something he could do. It might be menial, but he could do something if he had the motivation. But, Ron prefers to wallow in his poverty.
Why in the world would his parents care? They might be ashamed that they can't provide the best for their children, but there is a difference in being too proud to take handouts and letting your child work to earn money for the things they want that you can't afford to buy them. If Ron insisted, they'd allow him.
I wonder about the underage magic restriction, to be honest. Hermione said in the first book that she'd tried some simple spells and they'd worked. She never got in trouble. Fred and George spend all summer with bangs going off in their room while they are inventing. Think they aren't using magic? I just don't think that the restriction is as strict as it appears. Harry's always used his in front of Muggles; there might be the difference.
It's spitting in the face of the establisment. It's giving the finger to the status-quo. It's self -destruction for the sake of protest.
Self destruction for the sake of protest? Ron? If he had any idea that was what he was doing he'd become the most motivated person in the world.
I like losers. I think they are brave. And often times they find much nicer and far more interesting things to glory in than sucess.
I think someone who continually tries but fails is brave. Ron doesn't fit that description.
continued on next reply...
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It is obvioius that you and I respect different qualities in people and will never agree on this issue. However I have a question for you: if Ron starts to try and gives up his self-destruction for the sake of protest will you like him as much? It seems to me that his antipathy is what draws you to him. If he glories in his success (which he did after the Quidditch match) will you lose all respect for him?
I think Ron has lots of potential and I'll be very excited if he lives up to even half of it. I think he can develop without losing whatever it is that make people love him so much. But until he tries and puts forth a legitimate effort at anything I won't respect him.
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See... I would call that futile and dumb. But that's just me.
umm...
Ok, I think I did a lousy job at explaining myself here. I was trying to show even if Ron he had tried, even if he had taken the paths his mother and society expected any intelligent little wizard to take, it would have gotten him nowhere. He could have worked really hard and made it exceptionally clear like Hermione that he wanted the prefect position. He could have worked really hard from the very first year practicing in hopes of getting on the Quidditch team. He could have worked really hard at his grades so he could get any job he asked for. In the end he would have gotten some desk job at the ministry. It wouldn't have gotten much him closer to his mother than the rest of his brothers. He still would have been the sixth Weasley boy. He still would have been in the Harry's shadow. And this simply isn't what he wants and Ron really couldn't survive the day-to-day drudgery. So yes, I respect him for not taking the easy path, for not jumping through hoops.
I respect him for not trying, because if he had tried it wouldn't have been for his own sake. Hence one of the many reasons I came to love the bum.
That said I don't think he could really... Well I think Ron's passive resistance operates more off of resignation and maybe a bit of resentment rather than self-realization. Still, that could change.
It seems to me that his antipathy is what draws you to him. If he glories in his success (which he did after the Quidditch match) will you lose all respect for him?
Actually, you're right. I do enjoy his antipathy. :) And as silly as he was acting after the Quidditch Cup. I thought he was adorable. Go figure.
But until he tries and puts forth a legitimate effort at anything I won't respect him.
I suppose what I was trying to say is that Ron being a bum might not be as transparent as it seems. I for one would rather see him put forth a legitimate effort into something he actually cares about and I think he had some issues to work out before could really do that. I think the Qudditch Cup was the first step and the first opportunity (big emphasis on opportunity) that Ron has had in a long time.
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You really are a defeatist, aren't you? ;) How do you come to that conclusion? How can you possibly say that it would (or will) have done him no good to put forth an effort. So is Ron destined to have a low level, low paying job? I don't think that and I think he's one of the biggest literary losers ever created. I've got more faith in him than that. I think that if he put forth a little effort he would excel - maybe not at everything, but who excels at everything?
You never really answered the question I put to you that if Ron does start to excel at something, will you like him?
I for one would rather see him put forth a legitimate effort into something he actually cares about and I think he had some issues to work out before could really do that. I think the Qudditch Cup was the first step and the first opportunity (big emphasis on opportunity) that Ron has had in a long time.
I agree about Quidditch. He loves the sport. If his little bit of success doesn't motivate him then nothing can. I expect there to be challenges in his way on being a great Quidditch player. It will be interesting to see how he handles them. Does he love it enough to work at it?
Now, about the Prefect position: would you rather him keep it and do a half-ass job or give it up because he doesn't want it?
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Unfortunately, Ron doesn't think that way. And the whole quitting while your ahead thing does have some wisdom behind it. The truth of the matter is that it was after Ron had lost all the games he had played and been publicly humiliated more than once by his enemies, that he figured he really didn't have anything left to loose. And only then, did he play well. So it wasn't that the quidditch thing was a challenge a little hard work could remedy. Ron just didn't wake up that morning with super skillz. He must have had the ability all along. The challenge Ron faced was casting off years of purposeful routine inactivity. The challenge for Ron was for him to give up what was safe, what he was sure wouldn't make him look like a fool or less like one anyways, and risk the possibility of failing. And I think that is really painful stuff to work through and of course he would have wanted to run, especially after all the evidence seemed to say he shouldn't have ventured out in the first place. Of course, when he was at his lowest, he proved himself wrong. I'm sure this bodes well... most of the time.
In regard to the Prefect Badge - a person with any pride, that knew he didn't deserve the honor and that everyone thought so, would have taken the job seriously and tried to prove that he did deserve it.
Nah. A person with any pride would resented the hell out being put that situation in the first place. There a really good essay on Ron the prefect, that sums up my feelings quite well on the subject. Here's link... Ya know if you get bored. :) And I think he kept the position less for the honor and more for his mother. Just my opinion.
But, Ron prefers to wallow in his poverty.
No one. I repeat, no one wants to be poor. Ron is not poor because of some horrible character flaw. He is poor because of some choices his parents made which were completely within their rights and should be respected. However, this puts Ron in situations he would rather not be in and often times leaves him feeling inadequate. I don’t see what is so wrong with Ron not enjoying hand me downs and having to be in debt to his friends. Now, the wizarding world isn't suburbia. Ron really can't go door to door asking to de-gnome someone’s gardens. I don't think there would be much demand for de-gnoming anyways seeing as those better off have House-elves for that kind of labor and the rest much like the Weasley's are better off doing it themselves. Also like you pointed out, students are pretty much on par with squibs. Which means they will have to *compete* with squibs for jobs. As an employer, who would you hire: a 14 year old kid or older squib who is probably use to this kind of work and lower wages. As for the age restriction, what goes on at home is very different from what goes on in the market place. Markets are usually government restricted and first assumption is that a place of public business is better off adhering to all laws.
As for Mrs. Weasley. We don't what goes on in her head. Just easily as you assumed she wouldn't object to Ron working, I could assume, based on her emphasis on school, that she wouldn't want him to work because him being exposed to blue collar labor might convince him that he doesn’t need to try for something better. She was staunchly opposed to the Twins starting the shop, after all. And, hey, it's the argument my mother used on me.
So yeah, I still think it would be really hard for Ron to get a job. But cheers, to Ron and Ginny working at the Twins' shop over the summer even though that would be like the scariest job ever. No benefits, either. *shudders*
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yes, preveiw is my friend.
Ron the Prefect
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistermagpie/70411.html#cutid1
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