Arming Cote for Jeff
I started planning Jeff's 14th century arming cote the other night, and was wishing like crazy that I'd taken notes the last time around.
I started this post a few nights ago, but I really wanted to add pictures. So I started again.
If you've been reading for a few years, you may remember that I made Jeff a version of the Charles de Blois Pourpoint to wear to my vigil. It was constructed before the vigil, but I went back after the fact and quilted it. It fit him pretty well, but there were a couple of problems with it.
First, the armholes were too deep. He had full range of motion with the arms, without pulling the garment up at the waist, and also without a lot of bagging at the sleeves. That was great. But the grandes assiettes were a bit to grandes. If you compare the one I made Jeff with the original, you'll see that I overdid it. It does, however, match some of the images found in artwork (see tashadandelion’s Grande Assiette page for a great overview of images), so it might not be wrong, per se, but I don’t like the way I did it. The way I cut the armscyes meant that the seam was only a few inches away from the shoulder joint in some places, and almost twice as far in other places. This made the tailoring more complex. If you look at the original sleeve pieces at Marc Carlson’s Charles de Blois Pourpoint page, you’ll notice that the sleeve head is cut relatively straight across the top. That means that for all that it flares around the normal shoulder joint, it flares a fairly even distance around the shoulder joint. My sleeve, when laid flat, didn’t look at all like that.
As an aside, I used to think that picture looked like it was made up of a bajillion pieces, and was horribly complex. It just doesn’t feel like that anymore. Amazing what staring at all of these cuts over the years will do.
When I did the first fitting on Jeff, I was basing it off of a phone conversation with tashadandelion, who explained her method that she has taught at Pennsic, and then I also worked with hudebnik who had made the garment for himself (I can’t remember if shalmestere weighed in or not?). Unfortunately, I don’t remember exactly which ideas were whose. In any case, when choosing the shape of the armscye itself, I worked on the principle that everything that moved would be encased with the sleeve head, and everything that didn’t would be part of the body. So I’d put my finger in a spot on the back, and have Jeff whirl his arms. If it moved, it was part of the sleeve.
I still think the idea is sound, and I either took it too far, or there is more than one way to skin that cat. Isn’t there always?
As a result, the back was very narrow, and the armscyes went way down almost to the bottom of the ribs. Not only did this make tailoring difficult, but I had to expand the space between my quilting lines significantly where the radius was wider.
This time, I’m going to be a little less organic and a little more mechanical. Once I fit him and determine the actual sleeve joint, as if I were doing a normal, not fitted sleeve, I’m going to measure a set distance from that line all around. Or at least close to it. That will be my starting point. I had a hell of a time draping sleeves - it’s the one thing that I do better by measurement. I’m going to start by measuring the top of the sleeve out with a straight across top, and then add the flare part, adding in the gussets to make up for the width of the larger armscye. That’s the plan, anyway.
2. I didn't pad it well enough. The padding in the chest ended too high, and was prominent too high. This is much more apparent now that I'm looking at it with the armour. I should be able to add more padding to this one and make it look right, but I'd like to start out right with the next one.
As a result of the meager padding, it always looked as if he had a divot under his chest, in a not too flattering way, unless he stood up very straight.
See pic above for the front shot, with no extra padding.
Here is a side view, without the extra padding:
It’s not that he looks *bad*, it could just look better. And more accurate.
Front shot with additional padding. Doesn’t he look angry? :-D
Side shot with more padding. Ok, am I splitting hairs here? I see the difference. Also note that I’m adding the additional bulk with kitchen towels.
I think that the most significant protrusion of the padding needs to about match the armour. In other words, be a bit higher than I made it. That’ll probably require a slight adjustment to the cut.
Materials
We ordered materials yesterday. I should probably order thread as well, but until we know exactly what colors show up, and which fabrics we’re going to use, I don’t want to do that yet.
Jeff’s preferred choice for weight is this 12 oz Hem Herringbone Twill from hemp traders. After working with hemp canvas before and swearing that I’d never hand sew it again, I’m willing to at least look at it before making a decision. Yeah, I know that’s what ordering swatches is for, but we’ll find a use for it. I LOVE the twill, but if it’s too heavy I won’t be happy.
In case it’s just too heavy, we’ve also picked up some 7.1 oz blue linen. Jeff thinks it’ll be too lightweight for an arming cote, and he might be right. But if I can *sew* it, that’ll make all of the difference.
In the meantime, if I get the pattern done I can at least start cutting out the linings and the interlinings.
This arming cote will be quilted. However, what layers? A garment like this could actually be a somewhat effective armour in and of itself if it was made out of many layers of linen. flonzy has made a 15 layer War of the Roses Jack,a somewhat later example, demonstrating this. Extant examples are a couple of layers of linen and then cotton wool (or raw cotton). Jeff’s first pourpoint was a layer of wool, one layers of “Warm and Natural” raw cotton, and then the linen lining.
I like the idea of the many layers of linen for the body pieces, which I want to be quite stiff, giving a girdling effect. Not that Jeff needs girdling, but… We discussed this option, maybe 7-8 layers of linen at the meeting this weekend. Most of my knowledge of layered linen arming garments is from the 15th century, but I’m not sure if they know something I don’t know, or if our knowledge is incomplete.
In any case, there is a lot of wrinkling and bending going on in the sleeve, so I was thinking of making the sleeves, including the grande assiette, fewer layers then stuffed with a layer or two of cotton. He will need a significant amount of padding, mostly cotton wool, on top of the shoulders. I thought this was from How a man schall be armyd, but now I’m not seeing the reference.
I’m still debating on this arrangement, because while I like how the cotton stuffed areas will give movement, and the rest will have strength, I don’t know how having two different methods will look. The other big question is how to attach all of those layers without having incredibly bulky seams.
Hm. Need a new icon for this project.
I started this post a few nights ago, but I really wanted to add pictures. So I started again.
If you've been reading for a few years, you may remember that I made Jeff a version of the Charles de Blois Pourpoint to wear to my vigil. It was constructed before the vigil, but I went back after the fact and quilted it. It fit him pretty well, but there were a couple of problems with it.
First, the armholes were too deep. He had full range of motion with the arms, without pulling the garment up at the waist, and also without a lot of bagging at the sleeves. That was great. But the grandes assiettes were a bit to grandes. If you compare the one I made Jeff with the original, you'll see that I overdid it. It does, however, match some of the images found in artwork (see tashadandelion’s Grande Assiette page for a great overview of images), so it might not be wrong, per se, but I don’t like the way I did it. The way I cut the armscyes meant that the seam was only a few inches away from the shoulder joint in some places, and almost twice as far in other places. This made the tailoring more complex. If you look at the original sleeve pieces at Marc Carlson’s Charles de Blois Pourpoint page, you’ll notice that the sleeve head is cut relatively straight across the top. That means that for all that it flares around the normal shoulder joint, it flares a fairly even distance around the shoulder joint. My sleeve, when laid flat, didn’t look at all like that.
As an aside, I used to think that picture looked like it was made up of a bajillion pieces, and was horribly complex. It just doesn’t feel like that anymore. Amazing what staring at all of these cuts over the years will do.
When I did the first fitting on Jeff, I was basing it off of a phone conversation with tashadandelion, who explained her method that she has taught at Pennsic, and then I also worked with hudebnik who had made the garment for himself (I can’t remember if shalmestere weighed in or not?). Unfortunately, I don’t remember exactly which ideas were whose. In any case, when choosing the shape of the armscye itself, I worked on the principle that everything that moved would be encased with the sleeve head, and everything that didn’t would be part of the body. So I’d put my finger in a spot on the back, and have Jeff whirl his arms. If it moved, it was part of the sleeve.
I still think the idea is sound, and I either took it too far, or there is more than one way to skin that cat. Isn’t there always?
As a result, the back was very narrow, and the armscyes went way down almost to the bottom of the ribs. Not only did this make tailoring difficult, but I had to expand the space between my quilting lines significantly where the radius was wider.
This time, I’m going to be a little less organic and a little more mechanical. Once I fit him and determine the actual sleeve joint, as if I were doing a normal, not fitted sleeve, I’m going to measure a set distance from that line all around. Or at least close to it. That will be my starting point. I had a hell of a time draping sleeves - it’s the one thing that I do better by measurement. I’m going to start by measuring the top of the sleeve out with a straight across top, and then add the flare part, adding in the gussets to make up for the width of the larger armscye. That’s the plan, anyway.
2. I didn't pad it well enough. The padding in the chest ended too high, and was prominent too high. This is much more apparent now that I'm looking at it with the armour. I should be able to add more padding to this one and make it look right, but I'd like to start out right with the next one.
As a result of the meager padding, it always looked as if he had a divot under his chest, in a not too flattering way, unless he stood up very straight.
See pic above for the front shot, with no extra padding.
Here is a side view, without the extra padding:
It’s not that he looks *bad*, it could just look better. And more accurate.
Front shot with additional padding. Doesn’t he look angry? :-D
Side shot with more padding. Ok, am I splitting hairs here? I see the difference. Also note that I’m adding the additional bulk with kitchen towels.
I think that the most significant protrusion of the padding needs to about match the armour. In other words, be a bit higher than I made it. That’ll probably require a slight adjustment to the cut.
Materials
We ordered materials yesterday. I should probably order thread as well, but until we know exactly what colors show up, and which fabrics we’re going to use, I don’t want to do that yet.
Jeff’s preferred choice for weight is this 12 oz Hem Herringbone Twill from hemp traders. After working with hemp canvas before and swearing that I’d never hand sew it again, I’m willing to at least look at it before making a decision. Yeah, I know that’s what ordering swatches is for, but we’ll find a use for it. I LOVE the twill, but if it’s too heavy I won’t be happy.
In case it’s just too heavy, we’ve also picked up some 7.1 oz blue linen. Jeff thinks it’ll be too lightweight for an arming cote, and he might be right. But if I can *sew* it, that’ll make all of the difference.
In the meantime, if I get the pattern done I can at least start cutting out the linings and the interlinings.
This arming cote will be quilted. However, what layers? A garment like this could actually be a somewhat effective armour in and of itself if it was made out of many layers of linen. flonzy has made a 15 layer War of the Roses Jack,a somewhat later example, demonstrating this. Extant examples are a couple of layers of linen and then cotton wool (or raw cotton). Jeff’s first pourpoint was a layer of wool, one layers of “Warm and Natural” raw cotton, and then the linen lining.
I like the idea of the many layers of linen for the body pieces, which I want to be quite stiff, giving a girdling effect. Not that Jeff needs girdling, but… We discussed this option, maybe 7-8 layers of linen at the meeting this weekend. Most of my knowledge of layered linen arming garments is from the 15th century, but I’m not sure if they know something I don’t know, or if our knowledge is incomplete.
In any case, there is a lot of wrinkling and bending going on in the sleeve, so I was thinking of making the sleeves, including the grande assiette, fewer layers then stuffed with a layer or two of cotton. He will need a significant amount of padding, mostly cotton wool, on top of the shoulders. I thought this was from How a man schall be armyd, but now I’m not seeing the reference.
I’m still debating on this arrangement, because while I like how the cotton stuffed areas will give movement, and the rest will have strength, I don’t know how having two different methods will look. The other big question is how to attach all of those layers without having incredibly bulky seams.
Hm. Need a new icon for this project.