hear me out. chainshipping ‼️ ‼️

[ilmostro67]

(revolutionary, i know)
this community isn’t exactly active but i don’t care we can bring it back 🔥 anyway those of you who are still around . do you have any chainshipping thoughts you want to share? :0

Comments

Re: Re: Re: Probably too many

[ilmostro67]

“Like finding something precious that you've lost, only to lose it again, and this time you know it's forever.” just. yeah 😭 his story is such a tragic one and thats at this point its an inescapable part of the story because so much of what happens afterward is BECAUSE he didnt survive… but its still so heart-wrenching to see him be left there, as with so many other characters . and thats part of what makes saw what it is!

and then theres the way saw traps as a whole are such an obviously unfair system but theyre created from some kind of genuine belief that they *are*, (at least in john’s case- amanda and especially hoffman are very much aware their traps are impossible of course, since thats why they exist. i find that pretty interesting actually how the traps change as john stops being the one in control, theyre very evidently made to punish people, theyre like the earlier traps only without the illusion of any element of fairness if that makes sense). its like… even if you did survive, you’re never actually going to be able to go on to live the life you hadnt before. with amanda and lawrence, they ended up on a path of ruining their own lives and others’, and that was pretty much the only way it would go. and then with other victims like the ones in saw 3d/the final chapter, despite what they say, none of their lives are actually improved because of course they arent! they might appreciate living more but theyve also been changed forever and in a very traumatic way. even when it feels like the traps were justified or helpful its still so clear that they cant be because the entire idea behind them is just so wrong. and its so interesting but also so sad.

lawrence couldn’t escape what happened to him or what he did, and that changed him fundamentally. the lawrence we see in 3D/the final chapter is such a different person to the one we saw in the original because like… he really is stuck in this world now. and he’s almost embraced it? which i find really interesting

something i think about in relation to ghost/hallucination adam is the possibility of lawrence having hallucinated adam since not long after escaping, but seeing him the way he was in the bathroom (fully alive), up until 3D when he (i believe?) sees the bathroom again and presumably sees adams body for the first time. (granted i could be misremembering but im going off of the assumption that was the first time he saw adams body). i imagine that would have forced lawrence to really re-confront what happened, and the reality of adams body would make it a lot, like… closer in his mind. after that i feel like itd be interesting for him to hallucinate (or see the ghost of) adam in a much more half-dead state, since his guilt would be a lot more prominent as a result and that sort of thing. especially combined with what you said about him trying to end the cycle in 3D, how that would probably bring a bit of a change in morality for lawrence that would make hallucinations/ghost stuff even more painful.

(also i agree i wish we could know what ended up happening with alison and diana… id assume divorce but like. how did it even play out? its also kinda funny to imagine them NOT divorcing tho i admit. imagine deciding to give your marriage another go because your husband claims hes re-evaluated whats important or whatever after almost dying, and then he just. continues to disappear randomly only this time its to kill people not to cheat 😭)

sorry this got so long and tangent-y lol, i have a lotttt to say about these movies it turns out

Re: Probably too many

[refractical]

The nightmare/hallucination was a deleted scene from III belonging to Amanda, and I could absolutely imagine Lawrence struggling with similar guilt-related torment like that. There are a few fan-artists who have depicted Adam like the ghost of Jack from An American Werewolf in London, which I think is massively big-brained. I find it a bit sad that there are people who don't quite understand that Adam is ostensibly the 'blueprint' for sawtrap victims; it is always a tragedy, even for the people who are horrible-like, what justice is being served to people like the victims of that sex criminal in IV if they aren't ever part of the retributive process?

The original Saw definitely reigns supreme with the exposure of John's obvious hypocrisy. I think each subsequent film seems to have gotten some fans a little lost in the weeds and tempted by a very alluring ideology... but when you look at victims like Mark Rodriguez (flammable, nude, safe combination, broken glass on the floor guy who allegedly "faked sick" and most likely has a chronic illness that doesn't completely incapacitate him... god forbid he run an errand on a days off while recovering... are we really expected to trust John's judgement on whether he was truly sick?) and Paul Leahy (who John literally called "healthy" in his tape... right before commenting on the fact that he's clearly deeply depressed and self harms... John, does that seem healthy to you? You're punishing him why?).

I think about this a lot with how it pertains to Adam and Lawrence. Obviously, cheater or not, Lawrence doesn't deserve to be there and his family certainly doesn't deserve to be violently held hostage. Similarly, Adam has only committed the crime of illegal/unlicensed covert photography which John himself literally engages in and/or condones, as we see all kinds of covert photo prints in sequels that come after! Yes, I'm aware this is one reason why people speculate 'Adam's actually still alive' but, frankly, it would just ruin it for me if he were, and Leigh has more or less expressed the same way. Adam was trying to survive, end of. He was trying to afford to live. And he survived the 6 hours of his trap. He did, in fact, follow all of John's rules. Regardless of the key, he should've been permitted to leave and to live. The only one not following the rules, here, is John... Part of me wants to believe that Lawrence knew that.

Re: Probably too many

[ilmostro67]

ah yes the deleted scene from saw III! i actually only learnt about that a few days ago lol (i am admittedly VERY new to saw i only really got into it about a month n a bit ago) and i have to say its making me insane a little bit (in a good way). i really like the idea of adam as the ‘blueprint’ victim. especially with victims in the later movies like the one you mentioned, even people who its easy to feel are “deserving” of the traps, ultimately its never fair or justified. like you said, how are the victims actually helped? the focus is on the punishment and not any actual improvement. + of course there are the victims like mark rodiguez and paul leahy… its obvious they havent done anything wrong, their “crimes” are pretty much just being used as like… justification in johns mind for his cruelty. (or maybe excuse is a better word… idk)

literally how would john even know if he was faking being sick? him having a chronic illness is definitely much more likely than the wild theory john comes up with (and also even if he was faking being sick that pretty obviously doesnt warrant suffering such a horrible death). i feel like, considering how complex and inescapable the traps are, they were never really about getting people to learn their lesson- just punishing them while making it seem like he’s given them a chance. (and then paul! there wasnt even any actual reason he got put in a trap like… he was depressed? he self-harmed? usually the victims have done something at least vaguely unethical but like. he was just struggling! what is the point of punishing him like it certainly isnt helping HIM thats for sure)

also YEAH the rules. everything thats been said by john points to adam deserving to go free but he doesnt! because it was never actually fair. if he survived in canon, it just wouldnt work! thats why i prefer to think about adam surviving only as AUs and in the sense of what could have been, it makes the actual events of canon more heartbreaking and imo it then makes the AUs where he lives feel more significant because its like… the canon universe is unique in its tragedy, if that makes any sense?

Re: Probably too many

[refractical]

(Apologies for the late response, I've been pretty sick with chronic illness issues lately)

I've always hated the idea that John can be trusted in any stretch of the word... His perspective is so warped and perverted, and the things that he says to Jill (both about herself and about the patients/community she serves) are so disgusting, he canonically thinks sex workers and addicts and the unhoused are, like, scum; he feels they need to be cleansed, and if they can't be purified by that cleansing then they need to be exterminated (big Christofascist energy, he has).

I also stand by Leigh's insistence that Adam is dead. He was our first blood, our sacrificial lamb of sorts, the voyeur who 'sits next to us' and watches helplessly as the rest of this monstrosity unfolds, helpless to do anything about it. I like to think of him as literally Helen and Paris of Troy wrapped up in Christ-like suffering, dude suffered and died for our sins (sins of the franchise, lol).

Admittedly, I'm aware of the Christian interpretations of Saw but I've never really looked into that stuff, mostly because I fear being totally lost once they start talking about or referencing portions of the Bible 😂

But, for real, the tragedy of Adam is that... I'm not kidding you, I've looked at the laws, past and present, from the New Jersey and New York region where this was presumably set... nothing Adam did was a crime. I actually wrote a post about that here, if you want to read it... but, genuinely, he's sort of the 'perfect victim', and I feel like (intentional or not), Leigh may have set out to show us that every victim of a sawtrap is as 'innocent' as Adam, or is at least as undeserving of a justiceless death.

In the films since 2004, especially present in IV, V, VI, and X, is this idea that retribution or revenge fueled 'justice' is possible through Jigsaw's machinations. Call me crazy but, as a prison abolitionist and radical leftist, personally, that doesn't fly for me at all. The inclination we have to condemn characters on the basis of their actions is one thing, it's another one entirely to take it upon ourselves to maim and kill them for those actions, or to be the arbiters of life/death for anyone, 'criminal' or 'liar' or 'bad person' or not. There's a lot of pig-pilled bullshit in the Jigsaw ideology. But, really, it's senseless killing with a veneer of rationality.

RE: Re: Probably too many

[ilmostro67]

no worries about replying late, its not a problem in the slightest!! health comes first 🫡

totally agree about john, personally i find him so interesting because he holds such judgemental beliefs and clearly looks down on certain people as undeserving of life yet he still tries to justify it (to others and also imo to himself, to an extent). like, in i think saw v or vi? when he gets all worked up at hoffman calling what he does murder, it really seems as though he legitimately thinks he's not actually doing anything wrong. he's got this sort of saviour complex i feel like, where he thinks he can, idk, 'enlighten' people he sees as disgusting or beneath him, and if they refuse to accept his 'help' (by this i mean "if they don't survive a trap/don't react how john wants them to"), then he basically decides they deserved their fate anyway and brought it upon themselves. ofc john could just be putting up a front of 'innocence' to make himself seem better, but considering how much emphasis the films put on jigsaw's intent to 'help' victims i'd say its not unreasonable to think he was written w/ the intent of being someone who genuinely thinks that way. anyway yeah that all ties into the whole christofascism & christianity overall comparisons as well; missionary work to struggling communities and church-sponsored community service type of things come to mind for me. and that comparison works however you interpret john as actually feeling in regards to what he does as jigsaw, too, so thats interesting

love the idea of adam as a sacrificial lamb kind of figure, although ngl when i read 'dude suffered and died for our sins' i pictured him in one of those classic kinda christian paintings of jesus getting like. crucified or w/e asdfghjkjhgfdsdfghjk 😭

and i had a read of your post about adam not breaking any laws & damn. youre right he really is the perfect victim . it would make sense that he's meant to establish the inherent unfairness of the traps

AND ALSO. SO TRUE ABOUT THE REVENGE-FUELED JUSTICE STUFF. i think theres definitely influence from hoffman's career as a police officer (we all know how great the police are when it comes to justice (sarcasm)...), what with how its revenge that kicks off his career as jigsaw in the first place. its all very interesting how the different jigsaws & apprentices come up with their own different excuses and justifications for what they do, and how they all end up being completely irrelevant (because there really isnt any reasonable excuse or justification for it in the first place)

(one last thing: there really IS a ton of pig-pilled nonsense going on w/ the jigsaw ideology... maybe thats why they wear pig masks lol)

Re: Probably too many

[refractical]

I don't have much else to say but Adam is our sacrificial lamb for real 😭