Why do people always want to use the quick and easy route no matter what side effects it has?
If you run and stress an animal to the point of exhaustion you could probably walk up to any type of animal. The dog was too tired to invoke his flight or fight response anymore. He was too stressed. He shut down, AKA learned helplessness.
It only took 10 minutes, big deal. How did this help with training? Maybe the dog walked ok on leash...because it was too mentally and physically exhausted. I do not see how this is going to make a change the next day when the dog is amped up again. Unless the owner decides to be a bully like Cesar was and chase a scared dog around.
If the owner does repat this I can see a few things happening. 1) the dog eventually has enough of it, fights back and bites the owner 2) the owner ruins her relationship with the dog. The dog begins to shy away from the owner because she keeps chasing him down and freaking him out 3) he develops learned helplessness and submits. But to what point? So the owner "won". Is that the goal of owning a dog? To wear down his will so he submits and basically becomes a shell of a dog without any of his own personality? while I do not wish for an aggressive dog I also would not want a dog who was terrified of me and didn't move unless I said so. Will this dog become like this? Who knows. I'm exaggerating a bit, bit it is possible.
I think Cesar's method is a *great* way to make this dog even more wary of strangers.
I do like that he made the point of saying he was not touching the dog with the stick. I think that is a very important thing to point out so his viewers do not "try this at home" and hit their dogs.
Of course. I am always up for discussing dog topics with people, even if we disagree.
When I watch the show I see a lot of nervous/scared/appeasement body language in some of the dogs at his center.
They wait for his command
This means they are not scared? That makes no sense. A dog who waits for a command can be happy and excited, but ha can also be scared and nervous. Just because they listen to him does not mean they are not scared.
I know you said they do not look scared to you, but I disagree. Tails tucked, ears, back, head lowered, licking lips, diverting eyes; these are all behaviors you see in a dog who is nervous or scared or trying to appease another dog or person. Check out Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog" or "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas.
I cdo not recall that particular dog. But if you have a video clip I would love to see it.
I also said "some of the dogs". There are times when some of the dogs do not happy and normal. But whenever Cesar walks up to one or give one a look they exhibit the behaviors I previously mentioned.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I would rather my dog not cower at my feet.
Daddy is rapper Redman's tan pit bull. Daddy will be the big, stocky intact pit bull that Cesar takes to many clients' houses to help "rehabilitate" their dogs.
Cute dog! But it's hard to tell from a static picture what the dog is feeling. It doesn't seem freaked out though.
Here's one way to think of it. I'm going to exaggerate it a bit, jst so you understand what I mean.
Imagine an abused child or a battered woman. Are those two *always* looking terrified in the presence of their abuser? No. If that were the case more women and child would have been helped sooner. The child or women can still have calm and happy moments.
In my mind, even if the dog/person is only bullied for a short bit of time that is still too long. Especially since there are non-force methods out there that actually make the dog super excited and happy to work *with* the owner. I feel that it's a partnership. Dog and owner should work together and enjoy doing so.
Ok, now I can see better. I found a few more pictures of Daddy. I wasn't asure if his ears were back or he can the small cropepd ears people sometimes do with pits.
In all teh pix his ears are pulled back. This is not a natural state for the ear when the dog is very calm and relaxed. This kind of ear posture is an indication of anxiety.
I hate collars like that. My friend's bulldog used to wear a spiked colalr when he was a puppy. But my poor dog would be stabbed every time they wrestled! Plus, with pits I think it sends the wrong message. People already think that a mean and eveil. I'd rather one wear a feather boa ;) hehehehe
Ok, a few of those pictures still make me think Daddy is anxious. Again, maybe not at Cesar, but something (maybe the cameras, the people, the store).
If you look closely you can see tension in the skin around/above hsi eyes and at the end of his mouth. His mouth is not relaxed but pulled up and back a little bit. Accroding to the dog language books I have read these signs indicate stress.
In this picture Daddy looks rather stressed. His ears are back, his eyes are wide, and the corners of his mouth are pulled back - all indicative of a stressed dog. Though it's hard to discern why he might be nervous or stressed - it could just be he's in a situation he's not accustomed to, or he may not like cameras, or something.
Daddy, IMO, is a fine behaved dog and never looks overly fearful or frightened (though I don't think he's the epitome of "super well balanced happy dog" either, from what *I* have seen, I've never seen in in real life so who knows). But ONE dog who is well adjusted doesn't mean Cesar is a raging success at what he does. I've successfully caught fish, doesn't mean I'm that great at fishing or could tell you how to attach a hook to a line.
The reason people think he scares dogs is because he does. Chasing an already fearful dog is going to be terrifying to the dog. He floods fearful dogs with the stimulus that scares them (such as dogs who are afraid of other dogs, he'll take them into his group of 40 dogs). He ran a dog who was afraid of shiny surfaces across them. That's going to scare the dog.
Old school training used a lot of fear techniques, the whole "do that and I'll hurt you" type training. The dogs were "well behaved" and would wait for commands, but that doesn't mean they weren't scared. The whole idea of the training was that they WOULD be afraid of getting punished if they didn't behave correctly... It worked, the dogs behaved, but does that make it humane and acceptable to train that way? No.
Just because they don't look scared to you doesn't mean that they don't look scared to other people. Not every dog in his pack looks uncomfortable or scared, I agree. Few of them do look relaxed or at least "okay" with the situation, but a lot of them DO look frightened, nervous, or at the very least, uncomfortable.
If you run and stress an animal to the point of exhaustion you could probably walk up to any type of animal. The dog was too tired to invoke his flight or fight response anymore. He was too stressed. He shut down, AKA learned helplessness.
It only took 10 minutes, big deal. How did this help with training? Maybe the dog walked ok on leash...because it was too mentally and physically exhausted. I do not see how this is going to make a change the next day when the dog is amped up again. Unless the owner decides to be a bully like Cesar was and chase a scared dog around.
If the owner does repat this I can see a few things happening. 1) the dog eventually has enough of it, fights back and bites the owner 2) the owner ruins her relationship with the dog. The dog begins to shy away from the owner because she keeps chasing him down and freaking him out 3) he develops learned helplessness and submits. But to what point? So the owner "won". Is that the goal of owning a dog? To wear down his will so he submits and basically becomes a shell of a dog without any of his own personality? while I do not wish for an aggressive dog I also would not want a dog who was terrified of me and didn't move unless I said so. Will this dog become like this? Who knows. I'm exaggerating a bit, bit it is possible.
I think Cesar's method is a *great* way to make this dog even more wary of strangers.
I do like that he made the point of saying he was not touching the dog with the stick. I think that is a very important thing to point out so his viewers do not "try this at home" and hit their dogs.
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Of course. I am always up for discussing dog topics with people, even if we disagree.
When I watch the show I see a lot of nervous/scared/appeasement body language in some of the dogs at his center.
They wait for his command
This means they are not scared? That makes no sense. A dog who waits for a command can be happy and excited, but ha can also be scared and nervous. Just because they listen to him does not mean they are not scared.
I know you said they do not look scared to you, but I disagree. Tails tucked, ears, back, head lowered, licking lips, diverting eyes; these are all behaviors you see in a dog who is nervous or scared or trying to appease another dog or person. Check out Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog" or "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas.
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I also said "some of the dogs". There are times when some of the dogs do not happy and normal. But whenever Cesar walks up to one or give one a look they exhibit the behaviors I previously mentioned.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I would rather my dog not cower at my feet.
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Here's one way to think of it. I'm going to exaggerate it a bit, jst so you understand what I mean.
Imagine an abused child or a battered woman. Are those two *always* looking terrified in the presence of their abuser? No. If that were the case more women and child would have been helped sooner. The child or women can still have calm and happy moments.
In my mind, even if the dog/person is only bullied for a short bit of time that is still too long. Especially since there are non-force methods out there that actually make the dog super excited and happy to work *with* the owner. I feel that it's a partnership. Dog and owner should work together and enjoy doing so.
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In all teh pix his ears are pulled back. This is not a natural state for the ear when the dog is very calm and relaxed. This kind of ear posture is an indication of anxiety.
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I'm not saying Daddy was anxious the whole time, but in some of those pictures.
And it could have just been nervousness from the crowd.
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I apparently suck today. Those ears were from another dog. Daddy does have the super short cropped ears.
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Ok, a few of those pictures still make me think Daddy is anxious. Again, maybe not at Cesar, but something (maybe the cameras, the people, the store).
If you look closely you can see tension in the skin around/above hsi eyes and at the end of his mouth. His mouth is not relaxed but pulled up and back a little bit. Accroding to the dog language books I have read these signs indicate stress.
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Daddy, IMO, is a fine behaved dog and never looks overly fearful or frightened (though I don't think he's the epitome of "super well balanced happy dog" either, from what *I* have seen, I've never seen in in real life so who knows). But ONE dog who is well adjusted doesn't mean Cesar is a raging success at what he does. I've successfully caught fish, doesn't mean I'm that great at fishing or could tell you how to attach a hook to a line.
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Old school training used a lot of fear techniques, the whole "do that and I'll hurt you" type training. The dogs were "well behaved" and would wait for commands, but that doesn't mean they weren't scared. The whole idea of the training was that they WOULD be afraid of getting punished if they didn't behave correctly... It worked, the dogs behaved, but does that make it humane and acceptable to train that way? No.
Just because they don't look scared to you doesn't mean that they don't look scared to other people. Not every dog in his pack looks uncomfortable or scared, I agree. Few of them do look relaxed or at least "okay" with the situation, but a lot of them DO look frightened, nervous, or at the very least, uncomfortable.
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