Episode Discussion Post: 3x02 "The Purge"

[sherrilina]

Please join us for a discussion of tonight's episode 3x02 "The Purge" tonight at 10 pm EST. If you can't join us live, feel free to leave your thoughts and discuss after the fact!

Comments

[sherrilina]

I didn't like this episode nearly as much as last week/it was a lot less exciting (as much as I appreciate the Borgias' political machinations, I didn't find the Purge storyline to be as interesting), but it still had some great moments, and a lot of beautiful music (I found myself noticing it more this week, like the choral music during Lucrezia and Alfonso's first scene/Rodrigo and Vanozza in the palace, then the beautiful string number that begins when Rodrigo tells Vanozza that she makes him feel safe). I also continue to like seeing Cardinal Sassypants Sforza's expanded role.

I think my favorite moments might actually have been the Rodrigo/Vanozza scenes--I loved seeing his continuing affection for her, and I can understand him reaching for her in this new state of paranoia, and their scenes were really sweet. I do worry about Giulia though, is she going to be leaving the show? Can she stick around and still be badass with Vanozza and Lucrezia? (Loved her scene consulting with Vanozza, they sure have come a long way!).

I also loved seeing Juan continue to be mourned by Rodrigo and stand between him and Cesare even in death--Cesaee's reaction when Rodrigo called out his name (and that beautiful camera shot!) was priceless! (Although come on Rodrigo, he's not hour only son--have you totally forgotten about Gioffre?!)

The C/L scenes were sexy (Cesare's heavy breathing and "at last" and overall awkward reactions to the second one were perfect), but idk, despite the log thread of explanations in the last post they still felt a little abrupt to me, and I wish we had had more buildup. :/ (It also probably didn't help that I had basically already seen the scenes in gif or trailer form a million times already).

[lunasol28]

(Although come on Rodrigo, he's not hour only son--have you totally forgotten about Gioffre?!)

lol I feel like the whole show has forgotten about little Gioffre. I know I can't for the life of me remember where his narrative went. And it doesn't seem like anyone is concerned about him because they never talk about him so...only thing I can think is Gioffre's getting his play on shalala'ing somewhere.

but idk, despite the log thread of explanations in the last post they still felt a little abrupt to me, and I wish we had had more buildup

As you said, this topic has been exhausted in that other thread, but yeah I feel you. It is certainly plausible for them to make this large jump straight after Juan's death and then the near death of their father. Cesare has been trumped up even more as Lucrezia's savior and Alfonso isn't touching her which makes her feel unwanted which is the opposite of how Cesare makes her feel so it makes sense. It's just would have been better storytelling if they had built it up but I guess they kept their build up skills for 3x03 because everything sailed smoothly in that episode.

I mean the 3x02 CL scenes are great as stand alones but in terms of cohesiveness it would have helped if they played off of Alfonso's meekiness in contrast to Cesare's fierceness a bit more and given us a playful bite scene somewhere before the sexy bitey kiss scene so it wasn't like oh whoa when did it become okay for him to bite her lips like that and omg she's in heaven right now look at her face wait why aren't we talking about this he went all wolf on her in public and neither of them think it's a big deal like they've been doing that for awhile when we all know they haven't!

But lol Cesare turning into an awkward turtle was the most endearing thing. He's usually put together and swaggering around like he owns the joint and then oh hello naked!Lucrezia what do I do with my hands do I do anything with my hands I can't look away omg even her feet are beautiful I think I'm hyperventilating is anyone else hot? I cackled.

[crowandfog]

I mean the 3x02 CL scenes are great as stand alones but in terms of cohesiveness it would have helped if they played off of Alfonso's meekiness in contrast to Cesare's fierceness a bit more and given us a playful bite scene somewhere before the sexy bitey kiss scene so it wasn't like oh whoa when did it become okay for him to bite her lips like that and omg she's in heaven right now look at her face wait why aren't we talking about this he went all wolf on her in public and neither of them think it's a big deal like they've been doing that for awhile when we all know they haven't!

Hee! I'm starting to think that maybe we have no idea what these crazy kids get up to when we're not watching! LOL. Because, my first thought, too, was WHOA SINCE WHEN IS LIP-BITING OKAY??? But, to me, Lucrezia didn't seem shocked at all--just turned on. IDK.Then, I thought about it some more, and realized that the only time we've ever seen one of them be shocked by the other's more "inappropriate for siblings" behavior was when Cesare walked in on naked Lucrezia while she was waiting for her dressmaker. So, while I don't think we as an audience have missed any true relationship milestones, I have to wonder how much of what "shocks" us is normal for them.

When we first meet Lucrezia (and Cesare), she's totally cool with watching him get it on. #inappropriate She teases him for sleeping with "a fine lady! another one?" which implies that she's been witness to this before, not to mention that Cesare immediately knew it was Lucrezia spying and not, say, Juan the Infamous Troll. #inappropriate It's unclear whether L was shocked when C brushed his nose against hers because her sudden smile there could be taken different ways. Whether it was new or not, she enjoyed it. #probablyinappropriate Forehead kisses or touches are abundant in S1 and while the kisses may be normal sibling behavior (in my family at least), the forehead-to-forehead touches are a little questionable, but not to C and L, apparently (neither are facial caresses, obviously). So, these are already things that they've been doing for awhile it seems, to me, at least. Then when L presses a kiss to C's mouth in 2x02 and brushes their noses together, they just smile at each other, NBD. L also kisses Rodrigo on the mouth in 1x6, IIRC, so I think mouth kisses might actually be normal for their family (or just certain family members), too. Holding hands is also normal for C and L because they do that in 1x6 and Lucrezia recognizes Cesare by his hands alone in 1x9, so, it's possible that laying around together (like they do in 1x1) and playing with each other's hands (like they do in 2x10) is totally a regular thing for them. Holding hands occassionally is a little weird but okay, at least, when taking a walk together, but the hand fondling/'hand sex" that was going on while they laid on Lucrezia's bed is pretty much only something lovers would do. Anyway, all I'm saying is that I think it's possible this wasn't the first time Cesare's bitten Lucrezia on the mouth. IDK. The bedroom scene was definitely new territory though.

It's a weird part of their relationship to fixate on, I know, but, um, I 've thought about that scene a lot. LOL. For obvious reasons... ;D

[nyposter]

Yeah I remember the kiss in 2 x 02, there wasn't any sexual undertone but it was a mouth kiss and then she rubbed her nose against his afterwards. The lip nip was a bit more sexual though lol, but it was interesting that he did it with other people around, so I guess this may fall within the realm of "normal" behavior for them although just a touch across the line.

Loved his awkwardness in the bedroom scene though lol..

[crowandfog]

The lip nip was a bit more sexual though lol, but it was interesting that he did it with other people around,

Lol, yeah, C and L have no subtlety at all, and they don't even wait until they're alone anymore! They've been getting cozier and cozier even with people all around them. In S1, they were always so private, but that doesn't seem to be important to them now. [spoiler for 3.03]Like I can't believe that Lucrezia went straight to Chez's bedroom on her wedding night with servants still all around, and she even left her shoes in the hallway! Does she expect no one to notice that? Or maybe she just doesn't care... What's one more rumor, I guess, LOL.

Loved his awkwardness in the bedroom scene though lol..

That was the best! I don't think we've ever seen him that way before, and it's awesome that L has the effect on him. :D

[lunasol28]

haha yeah these kids have always disregarded boundaries when it comes to each other. But what threw me off about the lip bite, as sexy as it was because wow okay boy, was how overtly sexual it was. I believe up until that point everything about them and how they interacted was very sensual and intimate but not necessarily with sexual intent, and then boom in your face sexual vibes. I mean Lucrezia is really enjoying him touching her, really really really enjoying it lol. It was a different kind of charge running through the scene that I wasn't prepared for based on everything else I've seen.

But then again we aren't really sure how Cesare is with Lucrezia when he feels in his element. He's always been very alpha with her but it's coming out now in a more aggressive way. Also, I've noticed that we're only three episodes in and these two are constantly in each others space with no regard to their audience. Before it was more them secreted away from prying eyes or on their own having moments. But now they seem to be flirting with being quite um public with their displays of affection. It was bold of Cesare to kiss her like that in the middle of the armory with everyone still there and then 3x03 with Lucrezia up in his space while fixing his shirt and asking about his trip to Naples. They have always looked like lovers but now they seem more like husband and wife, a complete unit. I feel like that started in season 2 especially with Cesare becoming Giovanni's godfather, his reaction to Juan dangling Giovanni over the balcony and Lucrezia's distress over it, and now in this season particularly when he finds his mother, Lucrezia, and Giovanni safe in the closet, him doing his utmost for Giovanni and her about legitimizing Giovanni, her line about only feeling safe when he's near, and his anger at Alfsonso for staying silent and "that's your wife. your family."

I am there with you on fixating on what isn't and is acceptable with these two before they consummate their relationship because there doesn't seem to be a lot of things off limits. In fact, it seems the only time Lucrezia was distant with Cesare about anything was the whole Sforza ordeal before she could come back home. Other than that it's like let's be hugely inappropriate with each other in our displays of affection and talk about our sex lives and arrange trysts with lovers for each other becuase that's totally normal sibling behavior. yep

[crowandfog]

I believe up until that point everything about them and how they interacted was very sensual and intimate but not necessarily with sexual intent, and then boom in your face sexual vibes. I mean Lucrezia is really enjoying him touching her, really really really enjoying it lol. It was a different kind of charge running through the scene that I wasn't prepared for based on everything else I've seen.

You're right. They've always had sexual tension, but it did seem like Cesare was purposefully turning L on, and they hadn't done that before. His intent made quite a difference there. ;D

But then again we aren't really sure how Cesare is with Lucrezia when he feels in his element. He's always been very alpha with her but it's coming out now in a more aggressive way. Also, I've noticed that we're only three episodes in and these two are constantly in each others space with no regard to their audience. Before it was more them secreted away from prying eyes or on their own having moments. But now they seem to be flirting with being quite um public with their displays of affection. It was bold of Cesare to kiss her like that in the middle of the armory with everyone still there and then 3x03 with Lucrezia up in his space while fixing his shirt and asking about his trip to Naples. They have always looked like lovers but now they seem more like husband and wife, a complete unit. I feel like that started in season 2 especially with Cesare becoming Giovanni's godfather, his reaction to Juan dangling Giovanni over the balcony and Lucrezia's distress over it, and now in this season particularly when he finds his mother, Lucrezia, and Giovanni safe in the closet, him doing his utmost for Giovanni and her about legitimizing Giovanni, her line about only feeling safe when he's near, and his anger at Alfsonso for staying silent and "that's your wife. your family."

Yes to all of this! They don't seem to care so much about privacy anymore, and they are so very, very spouse-y with each other. In fact, I'd actually say that Cesare took on that husband role back in 1x09 as soon as Lucrezia came back to Rome. He hid her away so she could have her baby, he paced in the chapel while she was in labor, and he was the first Borgia to hold Giovanni. #proud papa lbr. ;) Lucrezia, in some ways, acts like they're married even more than he does--the way she asked him to help her poison Juan in 2x09 and how she expected him to side with her against Rodrigo in 2x10. [3.03 spoiler]And, yeah, the shirt scene, OMG, really, what sister runs her fingers over her brother's naked chest like that??? In public! LOL. That poor tailor probably needs brain bleach! I wouldn't have been surprised at all if they'd kissed in that shirt scene.

Anyway, believe it or not, I've actually spent the last week making a gigantic picspam that kinda explores the parallels and consistency regarding C/L's thoughts and feels regarding marriage/relationships because I've been noticing the same things you have. It was just so especially obvious in 3x03 that I had to express my ~feelings. :D

[lunasol28]

In fact, I'd actually say that Cesare took on that husband role back in 1x09 as soon as Lucrezia came back to Rome. He hid her away so she could have her baby, he paced in the chapel while she was in labor, and he was the first Borgia to hold Giovanni. #proud papa lbr. ;)

Oh yeah! I forgot about that you're right. *snort* Poor Ursula having to watch how intimate they are together I mean it was ridiculous that neither of them cared about her presence there. It was like Ursula who? A shining of example of everyone disappears when CL are together.

I totally agree with you on Lucrezia being more spousy than Cesare and I think that's because she's instigated most of those spousy moments and she's still doing it with her 'come home soon's which aren't about coming back to Rome but coming back to her.

[eiko82]

Although come on Rodrigo, he's not hour only son--have you totally forgotten about Gioffre?!

I'm starting to believe that Gioffre died of natural cases somewhere between season 1 and 2. That's the only way I can explain no one talking about him anymore.