mitzvot in Conservative Judaism

Dec 04, 2007 23:23

I was recently given a photocopy of the article "Conservative Judaism in an Age of Democracy" by Rabbi Harold Kushner. (I think it came from Conservative Judaism magazine. I can't find an online copy.) This theologically-attuned Reform Jew found it a fascinating read.
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judaism: theology

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fidei defensor, continued sanpaku December 6 2007, 04:39:59 UTC
This comment is inspired by some of the comments and how they dovetail with the main post, so bear with me ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued 530nm330hz December 6 2007, 14:30:34 UTC
There's Orthodox and then there's orthodox. As I wrote above:

On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting the fracture of Orthodoxy into YU Orthodoxy and Agudas Israel Orthodoxy --- As a "left-winger" I am very unhappy that the "black hats" get to define what most people thing of as Orthodox Judaism.

I believe that the halachic system is God-given and binding. I also believe that the Torah text was written and edited by divinely-inspired humans, that the universe is billions of years old, etc. The various beliefs that you ascribe to orthodoxy are held by some, but are not necessarily part of the halachic package.

You write:

I would reiterate that I really think this is a false dichotomy that everyone is setting up.I respectfully disagree. The question is: "Do I consider myself obligated by the demands of the halachic system, even when they are inconvenient and even when I dislike those demands?" (Please note: this question does not address the degree to which and means by which the halachic system itself may evolve over time ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued sanpaku December 6 2007, 15:08:20 UTC
Well, that last point there is the divergence between principles and practice. Just speaking for myself, I can't be bothered by that. Every belief system has armloads of hypocrites and tolerates hypocrisy. I agree with you that the divergence is lamentably bad for Conservative Jews, but that doesn't force a choice onto me personally.

I say this because I would certainly put myself in the category who sees myself (as you put it) "obligated by the demands of the haalachic system, even when they are inconvenient". And I agree that when most Conservatives pick and choose halachot with which they agree, they are being inconsistent -- but, nu, it's human nature that people are inconsistent, I think.

So if what you're saying is that Conservative rabbis or people like me who agree with your statements are essentially orthodox, great! :-) But of course that's not true on either the orthodox side or the Conservative side.

When I've brought this issue up with orthodox folks, they tend to give the answer that you do -- it's not really ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued sanpaku December 6 2007, 20:44:13 UTC
You claim that the fact that the institutions of Conservative Jewry won't permit eating pork & shellfish, but that Consevative Jews do so is a difference of principles and practice? If so, that should mean that were the pork-eaters asked, they would acknowledge that they shouldn't be eating pork, and perhaps feel some guilt. Is that what you believe would happen were the question asked?

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Re: fidei defensor, continued sanpaku December 7 2007, 05:27:46 UTC
Yes. In my experience most nonobservant but occasionally shulgoing Conservative Jews know that they're not living up to what the movement would have them do, and to some extent they feel guilty about it, though not necessarily enough to want to change their behavior.

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Re: fidei defensor, continued 530nm330hz December 7 2007, 14:37:45 UTC
Orthodoxy cannot validate critical historicism, ie the documentary hypothesis for the Torah or by extension for the halachic system in general.

You'll have to be gentle when you break the news to my rabbi and shul. Especially the professors of higher biblical criticism. :-)

It's not possible for the Torah to be divinely created and yet for all these random pieces of Mesopotamian and Canaanitic mythology to be in there.

Why not? If I can believe that God used evolution to create humanity, why can't I believe that God used the development of Mesopotamian and Canaanitic mythology to get us to end up with the Torah as we have it today?

Torah, broadly speaking, is not mi-Sinai.

If by "mi-Sinai" you mean literally theophanic, then you're probably right. But of course even in the gemara when they say "halacha l'Moshe mi-Sinai" that is a legal expression with the same import as "since time immemorial" in British common law.

I'll also point out that among the breadth of positions laid out in Emet Ve-emunah are several that you are ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued sanpaku December 7 2007, 15:04:37 UTC
OK, well, if you have a rabbi who teaches biblical criticism and the documentary hypothesis from the pulpit and you're in an orthodox shul, I admit, that's a new one for me. Granted that much of my knowledge is from reading and the like, but so much of orthodox writing that I've seen is apologist against bib crit. Would teaching it at YU not get you put under cherem? Look at the blasting directed at a mild historicist like Eliezer Berkovits. I admire his stuff quite a bit, but I really think his is an outlier position even in modern orthodoxy.

If I can believe that God used evolution to create humanity, why can't I believe that God used the development of Mesopotamian and Canaanitic mythology to get us to end up with the Torah as we have it today?The Torah has long been legitimately be read allegorically in Judaism, so I think Hertz was right when he said that evolution posed no problem. The Semitic religion thing... huh. I dunno how you square that circle. Perhaps you want to say that the myths are there to mislead us the same way ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued cellio December 7 2007, 03:30:48 UTC
When one starts choosing which halachot one considers binding, then no single halacha is binding, and one has actually answered "no" to the question of whether the halachic system imposes obligation.Where is the line between "X is not binding" and "I disagree with the interpretation of X and choose not to follow it"? For many mitzvot, and staying within the orthodox movements (plural intentional), you can find a range of opinions that includes "not applicable". Consider, as one example, dress. Modern Orthodox women are not, in their theology, sinning by wearing pants; they don't see a commandment forbidding it. A woman of chareidi theology who wore pants would understand herself to be sinning. Both follow the same system but got different answers. Do you believe one of them is following "those halachot with which I agree" while the other is not? How does that differ from the Conservative system, or from a Reform Jew who says "I disagree about X ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued 530nm330hz December 7 2007, 14:15:56 UTC
When one starts choosing which halachot one considers binding, then no single halacha is binding,

I misspoke when I wrote this, and I apologize. What I should have written was:

When one starts choosing which halachot one considers binding, then one has answered "no" to the question of whether one accepts the halachic system (in toto) as binding.As you point out, one can certainly accept individual halachot as obligations without accepting the entire system, although I am not sure whether that differs from one taking on an obligation that is not rooted in the halachic system. For example, I consider it my civic duty to research the candidates and vote in every election ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued 530nm330hz December 7 2007, 14:24:17 UTC
Moving on now to a different sub-topic, that of "conscientious objection" as it were....

Where is the line between "X is not binding" and "I disagree with the interpretation of X and choose not to follow it"?There's a whole spectrum of answers to "Why don't I follow halacha X." At one end, there's "I know I'm obligated to, but I don't have the strength of self-will to do it." At the other, there's "I don't believe halacha can tell me what to do ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued cellio December 10 2007, 02:16:33 UTC
There's a whole spectrum of answers to "Why don't I follow halacha X." At one end, there's "I know I'm obligated to, but I don't have the strength of self-will to do it." At the other, there's "I don't believe halacha can tell me what to do."

I don't now remember where I learned this, but I have come to understand that there are three, not two, basic answers to the question "do you keep halacha X?". They are "yes", "no", and "not yet". For me, "not yet" is very powerful; it keeps open the possibility, acknowledging my current lack of either knowledge or will without shutting any doors. When my answer is "no", it is for sound reasons after study and consideration. Most of my answers are either "yes" or "not yet".

I'm not sure what caused me to write that here, but I'll leave it there anyway.

But "I know the halacha says that, and I normally follow the halacha, but in this case I think the halacha is wrong" is not on that spectrum.So when a rabbi (in Orthodox Judaism you would always consult your rabbi, yes?) says "in this ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued 530nm330hz December 10 2007, 02:38:36 UTC
I first encountered the "not yet" in Nine Questions People Ask About Judasim by Prager and Telushkin.

Being within the system is key; that said, the system does not produce single answers most of the time.

Yup.

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Re: fidei defensor, continued cellio December 7 2007, 03:51:53 UTC
But it seems to me that whether or not you feel obligated by divine will, personal choice, communal values, or cultural inheritance has almost NOTHING to do with whether or not you're a Conservative Jew or if Conservatism will survive. It's not what Conservatism is based on, in the final analysis.It might not be what Conservatism is about (and might not be what causes it to succeed or fail), but isn't it a key tenet of Conservative Judaism (on paper, at least) that there is a halachic system, given by God, that is binding on all Jews? The Orthodox movements say the same thing but the movements disagree on specifics. (So do the various Orthodox movements, by the way.) Conservative Judaism adds mechanisms that allow more lenient modern interpretation, but I thought it was all supposed to be working within a framework ( ... )

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Re: fidei defensor, continued sanpaku December 7 2007, 05:25:16 UTC
isn't it a key tenet of Conservative Judaism (on paper, at least) that there is a halachic system, given by God, that is binding on all Jews?

Yes, that's absolutely true, but what I'm saying is that exactly how you feel you're obligated doesn't have a lot to do with why you pick a given denomination. I think it has more to do with what you believe about the nature of Torah than about how you're obligated to mitzvot. And those are obviously related things, yes. But it's critical historicism and not the rationale behind the mitzvot that I think are at the heart of what CJ is all about.

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