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Long review, but this is very interesting! tomatoe18 December 31 2008, 07:02:07 UTC
You must be proud of me! *grins* I promised you I would read your dark fic, didn't I? :D Well, I managed to read every word of this fic until the very end (despite the flinching throughout)!

I apologize in advance but I'm not going to lie to you, I wrinkled my nose a lot at this. Not because I think your writing is bad, of course, but because of Umbridge, who is the character I hate the most in HP universe, be it canon or fanfics. That said, you get MAJOR PROPS for choosing Dolores Umbridge as a main character for this fic. What inspired you? Did you always want to write about Umbridge? :o

Whatever your reason is, though, I find it completely fascinating that a fanfic author could give depth to Umbridge (because that's what you did). So much that I still hate her just as much when JKR wrote about her.

I absolutely can't wring out any sympathy for Umbridge, even with the difficult past she went through. I understand that her personality is influenced by many events in the past, including her mother's resentment and the revelation of her parentage, which are not her fault. However, it's still very difficult for me to see her as anything but evil.

Her retaliation against the friend who called her a toad was very offensive and it gave me a negative impression on her character right from the beginning. Did she really have to retaliate by making another person suffer? As a comparison, Harry's accidental magic as a small child (before he attended Hogwarts) usually saves himself and only affects himself (him being able to jump to the roof, his hair growing out no matter how short Aunt Petunia cut it). Umbridge's accidental magic, like Tom Riddle's, gives someone else suffering. I don't know whether it has been mentioned or not in canon, but it seems that "intention" has a lot to do with this so-called accidental magic. I think Harry's intent was never to hurt anyone; just saving himself. Whereas Umbridge, as you've shown here, just seems so keen on taking revenge on someone who's hurting her, even as a child. In this regard, I see a similarity with Tom Riddle.

Personal observations aside, I would like to point out that this part absolutely gave me the chills:

Two days later, she examined her special quill. A black feather and a very, oh so very sharp tip.

Dolores means pain.

She couldn’t wait to try it out. And Potter, as always, came to serve his purpose.

I have never quite forgiven JKR actually for making her hero go through this torture. I don't know which one was worse, the cupboard thing or this punishment. And the way you wrote it - the way you gave the Umbridge's voice and point of view to the punishment - just terrified me completely. (You're good at scaring me!)

There was one thing that sort of made me feel uneasy, and it was this:

The potion tasted much more sugary than she had expected, and for the first time in her life, not-nearly-sweet-enough was enough. Then, she removed most of her clothes and crawled into bed. In the same night, the cramps started tearing through her belly.

Does that mean what I think it means? That she's been raped and that she took a potion to get rid of any possible result from the act? I'll wait for your confirmation before expounding on my thoughts, if that's all right with you. :)

All in all, it's a very interesting fic. (And I don't mean that as a euphemism for anything!) I say interesting because this is not my cup of tea at all and I wouldn't have read this fic at all if you weren't the one who wrote it, but now that I've read it, I feel like I want to discuss it at length and I find that this fic has opened a door to many thoughts that I've kept locked inside my head about Dolores Umbridge. I hope that makes sense. :P

Well, that's all for now. (Yay for me, I survived a dark fic! XD) Good job, Cats! :)

EDIT: I just thought of something. ABout the title of my long comment. I just want to clarify that it's not my comment that is interesting. I meant that the FIC is interesting. So much that it produced a long review from me. :P Heh. I just don't want to be accused of vanity. LOL!

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Re: Long review - my answer part 1 catsintheattic January 1 2009, 10:29:32 UTC
Dearest, thank you so much for your courage to read my darkfic and for leaving such a wonderfully detailed review. I love you so much and I'm totally proud of you! *hugs you* Yes, of course I knew that you meant the fic and not your review. Silly girl! *hugs you some more*

That said, you get MAJOR PROPS for choosing Dolores Umbridge as a main character for this fic. What inspired you? Did you always want to write about Umbridge? :o

I chose "ambition" as my prompt-word (you give a word and get a quotation back as a prompt, but are still free to write any character you'd like - that's the amount of freedom I love!), and once I had chosen that, I was looking at the ambitious characters. And Tom Riddle would have been too obvious and therefore boring to write about. *g*

Umbridge fascinates me, because she reminds me of Third Reich Germany a lot. She hides her nastiness under cute ribbons and cats, but she is one of the most calculating characters in canon. And she drives the action, because you need characters like her who are not afraid to dirty their hands - she is absolutely Machiavellian. In her mind-set, it's all about the greater good and her own profit at the same time. And I'm certain that she is a sadist, she gets off on the torture she inflicts on Harry and the other students.

But you know how much I abhor one-dimensional characters. And this is why I had to give her this kind of back-story.

Writing this story was the most amazing experience. When I get into a characters head, I kind of start to feel like them. But with Umbridge, I felt nothing - for days. I finally realised that I felt nothing because she felt nothing, too. And I understood how she had taught herself to detach from her feelings (in that scene where she had to kill Snowball), to be able to do what she had to do. Umbridge abhors the loss of control more than anything else - that's why she is so keen on keeping order, why she hates Harry so much. And that need had to come from the experience that she had to control herself all the time. And whenever she failed, horrible things happened to her.

All that said, I can also relate to the fact that you still don't feel sympathy for her. I don't do either. I stayed as detached from feelings for her as I was before writing that story - and I guess it shows. I'm on the fence with my feelings: on one hand, I am sorry for her past suffering, but on the other hand, I think she drew the wrong conclusions and made the wrong choices.

it seems that "intention" has a lot to do with this so-called accidental magic.

You raise an interesting point and I like your comparison of Harry's and Dolores' accidental magic. I don't think it was ever confirmed that accidental magic is influenced by intention, but Dumbledore told Harry repeatedly that our choices are what matters more than where we come from. Now we also know that the potterverse in general judges people for their families (I still want to make a post about that particular subject - lol). So, I would be willing to forgive young Dolores her magical slip, but not grown-up Umbridge for her torture methods.

Apropos torture: while psychologically, the cupboard must have been worse, because Harry was so young and it lasted over ages, as a reader I always found the scene with the quill much more horrible. Not only because JKR describes it in excruciating detail, but also because Umbridge is so clearly getting off on it. She loves to torture those children. It's the only time when her masks slips.

That she's been raped and that she took a potion to get rid of any possible result from the act? I'll wait for your confirmation before expounding on my thoughts, if that's all right with you. :)

Yes, that's just what happened. And now I'm curious about your thoughts on that scene. *bounces*

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Re: Long review - my answer part 1 tomatoe18 January 2 2009, 04:41:28 UTC
That's interesting! So the fic came from the prompt "ambition" (I didn't know it was a prompt-based thing, because I didn't follow the darkfest at all). I agree that choosing Riddle would've been obvious. Umbridge would be the more interesting choice of character and I think you made the right choice.

It got me thinking, though, that if I'd joined the fest and chosen this prompt, I would've written about Lucius Malfoy. LOL. It's a passing thought and I don't know why it crossed my mind at all. :P

But you know how much I abhor one-dimensional characters. And this is why I had to give her this kind of back-story.

Did you find her one-dimensional in JKR's books? I think JKR sometimes neglect to give some of her side characters depth, but this was never the case for me personally with Umbridge's character. One of the reasons why I thoroughly hated Umbridge in JKR's book was because I could imagine all kinds of other things to her character just from the way JKR wrote about her. That's why I find your fic overwhelmingly terrifying to read; it made all those 'imagined' things become all too real for me, as I have pointed out with the punishment scene with the quill.

I don't think it was ever confirmed that accidental magic is influenced by intention, but Dumbledore told Harry repeatedly that our choices are what matters more than where we come from.

I've gone back and skimmed through the books after I wrote that and you're right, it was never confirmed. It's true that JKR underlines "choice" more than anything when it comes to the actions of her characters in the books (I hear this quite a lot from her, too, in interviews). But I really couldn't help but make that observation and comparison regarding Harry's and Tom Riddle's accidental magic (that Harry's accidental magic didn't cause damage or hurt anyone while Tom Riddle's did). The way you portrayed Umbridge's accidental magic in the story, for me, drew a lot of parallels to Tom Riddle's. This is why I thought that Umbridge is just as evil as Voldemort.

Now we also know that the potterverse in general judges people for their families (I still want to make a post about that particular subject - lol).

I can't wait to see that post :P

So, I would be willing to forgive young Dolores her magical slip, but not grown-up Umbridge for her torture methods.

That makes sense. But your Umbridge doesn't come across as a repentant child either, which is probably why I'm still not willing to forgive her.

Speaking of Cupboard vs Quill, do you ever get the feeling that Harry (in the books) never seemed to outwardly despise the Dursleys for what they did to him? I got that kind of feeling. That Harry doesn't resent the fact that his childhood was unhappy and that he's not vindictive about it. But there were some points during the story (in the 6th and 7th books) where Harry pointed out that he doesn't lie, because the words "I must not tell lies" have been engraved on his skin. And his resentment for Umbridge comes across as stronger in the books than his resentment for Vernon, Petunia and Dudley. Also, and I think this might be related to your point about the Potterverse judging people by their families, JKR redeemed Dudley and Petunia in some way in the 7th book. She never redeemed Umbridge at all, did she?

(And I was thinking about all this on New Year's Eve. :P)

Re: Rape -- That's what I was afraid of. *sweatdrops*

To be completely honest, I was thinking of the pro-abortion and anti-abortion debate when I read that scene. But I won't go there. Simply because I don't have the energy to expound my thoughts on that. Suffice to say, that scene made me think about the pros and cons of abortion, and I was really impressed with the way you are able to stimulate my brain by writing about a simple scene that isn't even described in detail. :)

In general, my feeling about that scene is this: Umbridge's reason to take that Potion is justified. But I hate her anyway for doing it. Hence, my uneasiness.

I guess that's why it's called dark!fic, huh? :P

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Re: Long review - my answer part 1 catsintheattic January 2 2009, 09:34:26 UTC
Ah, no, I didn't want to imply that JKR wrote her one-dimensional. On the other hand, JKR has this tendency to write her villains one-dimensional. It always shocked me that Dumbledore didn't ever feel the slightest bit of compassion toward a young boy who had to grow up in an orphanage.

That's why I find your fic overwhelmingly terrifying to read; it made all those 'imagined' things become all too real for me, as I have pointed out with the punishment scene with the quill.

That's what I try to do with the fic I write: dive into the character as I see them in canon and imagine what else they could do and what the wouldn't do at all. I write almost completely character-driven, the plot is always second. I start with an idea and some scenes, and to connect the scenes and explain how I see them, I develop the story. JKR is a writer who, IMHO, writes plot-driven. That's why she rocks so much at action scenes - which I don't. Lol.

I thought that Umbridge is just as evil as Voldemort.

I think she is even more evil, from the perspective of a naive reader. Voldemort comes with the label "evil" attached to him from the very first moment. But Umbridge is evil under cover. That's why she will always be connected with god-believing Nazis in my mind. She *is* a worthy member of society. She works in the Ministry of Magic. She has the establishment on her side, and JKR never outed her as a Death Eater. By all standards, she is a hard-working, approved member of society. And she is an evil, sadistic, any-means-to-an-end bitch.

I can't wait to see that post :P

You're a temptress!

OMG - you thought about Harry and resentment and redemption on New Year's Eve? Poor thing! *hugs*

I think a lot of the resentment for the Dursleys is expressed through Hagrid and McGonagall, who speak openly against the Durleys. As a part of the Muggle world, they are not nearly as important as Umbridge. And no, Umbridge was never redeemed.

I was really impressed with the way you are able to stimulate my brain by writing about a simple scene that isn't even described in detail. :)

Thank you so much for that comment! Even though this was a dark fic, I didn't want to show too much gore on screen, but to concentrate on the implications of Umbridge's mind-set and actions. And yes, that part was meant to compare the different choices of Dolores and Mabel, and how it affected their lives. And also, to show that Dolores treats herself in the same clinical way she treats others. If she thinks something has to be done, she acts accordingly.

If there is one thing I don't hate her for, it's the abortion. In fact, I almost think that Mabel should have done the same. She couldn't love her daughter, she even envied the love Dolores got from her grandfather. I think it's wrong to keep a child just because you think that killing is a sin, because child abuse is an almost greater sin - it can last a lifetime.

Thank you again for sharing all your thoughts. *hugs*

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Re: Long review - my answer part 1 tomatoe18 January 2 2009, 11:47:33 UTC
It always shocked me that Dumbledore didn't ever feel the slightest bit of compassion toward a young boy who had to grow up in an orphanage.

With regards to Tom Riddle, you mean? If that's what you mean, I think he DID show some compassion. Perhaps not a lot, but I think it was mostly because Dumbledore knew that Riddle had displayed some signs of terrible magic and it made the old man wary of him. That's how I see him. (I am so going to check the book again tonight.)

I don't doubt that Umbridge's evilness being greater than Voldemort. In the long run, she can probably pose more problems to the wizarding society than Voldemort does. Umbridge's evilness is quite "human", after all; as in, she doesn't need to have magic to execute her evil deeds. Magic or no magic, torture is torture is torture. Someone like her can drive another person to becoming evil as well. Not to mention, she represents the bureaucratic side of the government... and that implies a lot of (evil) things. *shudder* I suppose this is why she is a character everyone loves to hate, because everyone realizes her potential as the "true evil".

I think a lot of the resentment for the Dursleys is expressed through Hagrid and McGonagall, who speak openly against the Durleys. As a part of the Muggle world, they are not nearly as important as Umbridge. And no, Umbridge was never redeemed.

Even through Hagrid and McGonagall, that expression is not enough in my opinion. It doesn't feel like it comes from Harry. It comes from people who care about Harry, but not from the hero himself (and you know how JKR almost always tells the story through Harry's point of view, so I got this impression very strongly). So, really, I don't know which one is worse -- Harry being emotionally neglected for eleven years by his blood relatives or physically tortured by Umbridge for less than one year. Both seem... cruel. *shrugs* But, anyway, I digress. Sorry for veering off topic.

If she thinks something has to be done, she acts accordingly.

I think you just described Umbridge perfectly in that one sentence. Her speeches in canon show this trait of hers. *shudder again*

I think it's wrong to keep a child just because you think that killing is a sin, because child abuse is an almost greater sin - it can last a lifetime.

I know this. I don't think she's wrong. But the act, coming from Umbridge, executed in such a cold manner, made the whole thing completely horrible and I felt like slapping her for doing it. *sigh* Mind you, I'm not saying it would've been better if she'd shown more emotion. I think my mind is set to despise Umbridge, so it's probably me and not the issue of abortion itself...

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Re: Long review - my answer part 1 catsintheattic January 3 2009, 21:37:22 UTC
AD showed some compassion, but I always found it cold-hearted. He saw TR's flaws, he has that knack for seeing through people, but to me he seemed prejudiced right from the beginning. If he truly believed that choices make what we are, he could have tried harder to let TR see the wrongness of his decisions. I cannot imagine that he ever sat down to talk to Tom like he did with Harry.

Umbridge = bureaucracy - exactly!!! I was looking for that word and didn't find it. Lol. That's also one of her Nazi characteristics to me: that kind of perfected machine to weed out those who weren't wanted. And it is her efficiency which makes her so evil. *shudders*

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Re: Long review - my answer part 2 catsintheattic January 1 2009, 10:31:41 UTC
I say interesting because this is not my cup of tea at all and I wouldn't have read this fic at all if you weren't the one who wrote it, but now that I've read it, I feel like I want to discuss it at length and I find that this fic has opened a door to many thoughts that I've kept locked inside my head about Dolores Umbridge. I hope that makes sense. :P

I cannot thank you enough for your openness and willingness to read outside your comfort zone and I feel deeply honoured that you trusted my writing skills enough to take that risk. This means such a lot to me! *deep bow*

And I'm very much looking forward to hear your thoughts and discuss the fic at length with you. Never fear that there is something you can't say about my writing or my stories. I know that you would never intend to say something bad or hurt me, so even if you find something disturbing or unbelievable or unclear, don't hesitate to say so. Feedback in general is a wonderful treat, and feedback like yours is a treasure.

*HUGS*

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