New Threadkris_schneeNovember 20 2009, 00:07:25 UTC
(First, thanks for a thought-provoking conversation and for your politeness. It's a refreshing change from some people I've talked with. May I respectfully repost it all?)
You're right: I'd be hypocritical if I wanted government to give me "free" schools and the like while railing against it taking stuff by force. So I don't support those things! The main exceptions are the military, police and courts, which fall under the Founders' theory that government exists to protect people against force and fraud by other people. They didn't think a "right to life" meant a right to be given everything you need to survive.
But we could be free to disagree on this topic, if we still had a Constitution. It was set up so that states would have most of the power and make their own decisions. But the statists -- Democrats and Republicans alike -- have been saying, let's put all power under the central government. For instance, you said we should make education federally-funded, which implies federal control. Some of us citizens are saying "We don't like your way of running things, so leave us alone and do that within your own states." But you guys are saying, "No! Everyone has to do what we say!" So some of us feel backed into a corner. I understand you think you're helping us, but we don't want that kind of help.
Part of the reason we don't want the state's "help" is that it degrades us, makes us weak and slavish. CNN has a good article today about how North Korean escapees are stunned by the ability to make their own decisions, and barely understand the idea of taking care of themselves. Wherever the government tries to make everybody equal, they end up being horribly oppressive -- sometimes even committing mass murder. And it doesn't even work -- the party bosses just rob everyone. You don't think corporate CEOs are going to stop being super-rich under government-run health care, do you? Only now they really will be doing evil, since they'll have coercive power to force you to buy their product. Not as in "bwahaha, we have a monopoly", but as in "do it or go to jail".
Profits are good. They represent making lives better, and trading through peaceful agreement. The only real alternative to profit and voluntary charity is theft, the act of taking stuff by force or fraud. Statists don't seem to understand that theft is bad even if there's a democratic vote on it. Conservatives and especially Libertarians at least try to limit the robbery.
The "Firearms Freedom Acts" are about the 10th Amendment, not guns. But what is a patriot supposed to think when he hears: "The government has 'essentially unlimited' power, it should be centralized so no one can escape, and oh yeah, we want to take your guns because we mistakenly think the 2nd Amendment was only about fighting the British?" Look at the yellow rattlesnake flag. It's a warning that some Americans aren't going to put up with this kind of domination forever. I hope things stay peaceful. The feds are going to have to kill people if they ever seriously try to disarm them, because guns are the last-ditch way of protecting ourselves from any aggressor.
It all comes back to karma. You basically asked, "Why am I being given stupid orders by the government re: cold medicine?" Well, you said yourself that you think you are ignorant (if you still call yourself an American) and that the central government ought to control people more than it does. You're getting your wish! Soon you'll have even less freedom, since government will tell you what choices you can have. And the government will treat you like you're weak and can't take care of yourself. I respect you enough that I think you can and should take care of yourself.
Re: New Threadcassen_grrrlNovember 20 2009, 03:21:29 UTC
You brought up the whole states' rights vs. federal government. That is what the whole Civil War was REALLY about - slavery was just an offshoot of that topic. Even way back then our country was divided in half and that division has developed into the Democrat/Republican division. I think states should have rights over some things, such as speed limits (though the feds say that in order to get federal money for roads they have to have it under a certain number), taxes, lotteries, fireworks, alcohol, cigarettes, and those kinds of laws. Laws such as marraige should be federal - For example some states allowing same-sex marraige and other states not allowing it - the ruling on that should be nationwide, not state-by-state. If a same-sex couple living in a state allowing same-sex marraige gets married and has to move later to a different state that affects their lives greatly. Same with schools - the education you get shouldn't depend on where you live. The U.S. is ONE nation, not 50! As for the Founders' theory, they said the right to life, liberty and the PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS - If you don't have access to healthcare when you need it, you can't really persue happiness, now can you... I understand that you are worried about the government having too much power because that leads to dictatorship. I think I said this before - Americans need to realize that the system of government we have is set up (at least in theory) to be overthrown at any time. That way, it can't turn into a dictatorship. Another problem is that since on most issues national opinion is usually split pretty close to 50/50 (usually Dem/Rep). If one group rallies, the opposing group will too, so it doesn't help much. The worst thing is all the money that's thrown around in Washington and all the lobbyists from big business, etc. Legislators vote by the dollar. Big business tend to influence government, and that's a problem. Now you have control by groups that just want profit. You say that profit is a good thing. Well, it's only good for those who are making the profit. If big businesses become too powerful it is bad for the economy - they go for laws that make them richer, and all the money ends up in just a few pockets. When you have many small businesses, the money is more evenly spread around. This keeps money in the pockets of consumers. If consumers have money they spend more which boosts the economy. The patriot should hear, "If you don't like your government, then change it!" It's like the whole flag burning issue. Making burning the US flag illegal goes against everything that flag stands for! You should be able to burn it, overthrow the government, change the government, change the system, etc. That, however, doesn't mean people need guns. The fact about guns is that they statistically (by a wide margin) kill the people they are supposedly protecting than they do any aggressor. I doubt gun laws will ever change in the U.S. being against them is just my opinion. The part of U.S. government that is much, much too powerful is the military. If the U.S had another Civil War, it would have to be at a state level - the states individually would have to get together and threated to succeed from the union. (That is another area where states should have power. This is how the states keep the feds from having too much power.) When a significant number of states get together, the feds have to pay attention. In order for the people to get the states behind them, they have to go to their local governments. Many people forget that government starts locally - neighborhood, city, etc. People have gotten so lazy, and they tend not to do anything because that is the easiest route to take in life. If Americans don't wake up and get involved in politics then they deserve to be walked all over and treated like "pets" of the government. Look at the percentage of people to don't even vote. It's REDICULOUS!!! When it comes to my cold medicine, it is still available in the U.S. - you just need to show ID and sign for it. It's the Mexican government that has banned it completely. (Maybe we've been debating about the wrong government.) ;)
You're right: I'd be hypocritical if I wanted government to give me "free" schools and the like while railing against it taking stuff by force. So I don't support those things! The main exceptions are the military, police and courts, which fall under the Founders' theory that government exists to protect people against force and fraud by other people. They didn't think a "right to life" meant a right to be given everything you need to survive.
But we could be free to disagree on this topic, if we still had a Constitution. It was set up so that states would have most of the power and make their own decisions. But the statists -- Democrats and Republicans alike -- have been saying, let's put all power under the central government. For instance, you said we should make education federally-funded, which implies federal control. Some of us citizens are saying "We don't like your way of running things, so leave us alone and do that within your own states." But you guys are saying, "No! Everyone has to do what we say!" So some of us feel backed into a corner. I understand you think you're helping us, but we don't want that kind of help.
Part of the reason we don't want the state's "help" is that it degrades us, makes us weak and slavish. CNN has a good article today about how North Korean escapees are stunned by the ability to make their own decisions, and barely understand the idea of taking care of themselves. Wherever the government tries to make everybody equal, they end up being horribly oppressive -- sometimes even committing mass murder. And it doesn't even work -- the party bosses just rob everyone. You don't think corporate CEOs are going to stop being super-rich under government-run health care, do you? Only now they really will be doing evil, since they'll have coercive power to force you to buy their product. Not as in "bwahaha, we have a monopoly", but as in "do it or go to jail".
Profits are good. They represent making lives better, and trading through peaceful agreement. The only real alternative to profit and voluntary charity is theft, the act of taking stuff by force or fraud. Statists don't seem to understand that theft is bad even if there's a democratic vote on it. Conservatives and especially Libertarians at least try to limit the robbery.
The "Firearms Freedom Acts" are about the 10th Amendment, not guns. But what is a patriot supposed to think when he hears: "The government has 'essentially unlimited' power, it should be centralized so no one can escape, and oh yeah, we want to take your guns because we mistakenly think the 2nd Amendment was only about fighting the British?" Look at the yellow rattlesnake flag. It's a warning that some Americans aren't going to put up with this kind of domination forever. I hope things stay peaceful. The feds are going to have to kill people if they ever seriously try to disarm them, because guns are the last-ditch way of protecting ourselves from any aggressor.
It all comes back to karma. You basically asked, "Why am I being given stupid orders by the government re: cold medicine?" Well, you said yourself that you think you are ignorant (if you still call yourself an American) and that the central government ought to control people more than it does. You're getting your wish! Soon you'll have even less freedom, since government will tell you what choices you can have. And the government will treat you like you're weak and can't take care of yourself. I respect you enough that I think you can and should take care of yourself.
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As for the Founders' theory, they said the right to life, liberty and the PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS - If you don't have access to healthcare when you need it, you can't really persue happiness, now can you...
I understand that you are worried about the government having too much power because that leads to dictatorship. I think I said this before - Americans need to realize that the system of government we have is set up (at least in theory) to be overthrown at any time. That way, it can't turn into a dictatorship.
Another problem is that since on most issues national opinion is usually split pretty close to 50/50 (usually Dem/Rep). If one group rallies, the opposing group will too, so it doesn't help much. The worst thing is all the money that's thrown around in Washington and all the lobbyists from big business, etc. Legislators vote by the dollar. Big business tend to influence government, and that's a problem. Now you have control by groups that just want profit.
You say that profit is a good thing. Well, it's only good for those who are making the profit. If big businesses become too powerful it is bad for the economy - they go for laws that make them richer, and all the money ends up in just a few pockets. When you have many small businesses, the money is more evenly spread around. This keeps money in the pockets of consumers. If consumers have money they spend more which boosts the economy.
The patriot should hear, "If you don't like your government, then change it!" It's like the whole flag burning issue. Making burning the US flag illegal goes against everything that flag stands for! You should be able to burn it, overthrow the government, change the government, change the system, etc. That, however, doesn't mean people need guns. The fact about guns is that they statistically (by a wide margin) kill the people they are supposedly protecting than they do any aggressor. I doubt gun laws will ever change in the U.S. being against them is just my opinion.
The part of U.S. government that is much, much too powerful is the military. If the U.S had another Civil War, it would have to be at a state level - the states individually would have to get together and threated to succeed from the union. (That is another area where states should have power. This is how the states keep the feds from having too much power.) When a significant number of states get together, the feds have to pay attention. In order for the people to get the states behind them, they have to go to their local governments. Many people forget that government starts locally - neighborhood, city, etc.
People have gotten so lazy, and they tend not to do anything because that is the easiest route to take in life. If Americans don't wake up and get involved in politics then they deserve to be walked all over and treated like "pets" of the government. Look at the percentage of people to don't even vote. It's REDICULOUS!!!
When it comes to my cold medicine, it is still available in the U.S. - you just need to show ID and sign for it. It's the Mexican government that has banned it completely. (Maybe we've been debating about the wrong government.) ;)
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