liberal think tank says: surge is working

[caspian_x]

Farkline: (Some Guy) [SPIFFY] Liberal thinktank visits Iraq and says that despite Democratic conventional wisdom, morale is high and the US has a good chance of winning. The negative media coverage is, of course, all Bush's fault though

Once I get over the initial shock that the article was A) written by members of a liberal thinktank and 2) this

Comments

[kaali_thara]

No offense, but that seems a bit vindictive and petty. I mean, sure it can be fun to play the blame game, but I'd rather be concerned with the results.

I would have no problems with burying the hatchet. Except I have been given no cause by this administration to do so. Instead of owning their mistakes, they have lied and obfuscated in order to avoid responsibility. I could forgive an error in judgment. It's not like I ever expected much in critical thinking from him in the first place. But I am under no moral or ethical obligation to forgive when he is incapable of apologizing. As a Catholic, you should recognize that simple need. Even God requires that you ASK for forgiveness before it can be given. Since he hasn't asked, I certainly am not going to give.

As for victory... Let's try a baking example. Let us suppose I gathered all the ingredients to bake the perfect cake. I have an exquisite oven that is the most perfectest in the world. I mix the ingredients carefully, pour the batter in the pan, and put the pan in on a perfect timer for the perfect amount of time.

The timer dings and I go to take the cake out of the oven. I open the door and say "AH! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" I reach in to bring out the hot pan only to discover that, in my haste to make the perfect cake, I neglected one very important detail. I have no potholders, no exit strategy if you will. There it is, my perfect cake in the oven, burning to cinders because I made no preparation for removing it. By the time I find something to pull it out with, my cake is burned. No longer perfect. The fact that at one point it would have been perfect no longer matters. I may be able to salvage the cake, maybe only the edges are burned and I can cut them off and cover with frosting. But I wouldn't call this "success".

Just because he stood on an aircraft carrier with a big banner proclaiming his success doesn't make it true. I don't consider the death toll, civilian and military, consistent with any measure of success.

[caspian_x]

So Very Not Catholic.

Second, I really don't care whether you forgive him or not. Pragmatically, however, if things are going well in Iraq, the response of "Don't forget: Bush Lied, Kids Died!" is neither helpful nor particularly relevant. I'm not criticizing your choice not to forgive, I'm criticizing the fact that you feel it necessary to remind us of how badly Bush screwed up on the tail of good news in Iraq.

Since you used a baking analogy, I'll use an analogy of my own. Let's say you and I go out for a drive. You warn me that the car need maintenance but I ignore you. We are on the highway and the car dies. After a long painstaking time of fixing the car, in which I am continually criticized for screwing up, I finally gain some progress with the car. You respond, "Yes, but don't forget that you caused this mess in the first place." I would find that petty and distracting from the pragmatic point.

[kaali_thara]

Sorry, forgot you weren't Catholic.

The car analogy doesn't hold. I don't really point the finger at Bush for the sake of blaming. I don't feel a need to remind out of vindictiveness.

He is the leader of his party. His party supported, and brutally enforced (by rhetorical means, not physical) his plan. As such, pointing the blame at Bush by necessity points also to Republicans. Holding an elected official accountable for their actions is an important part of the Democratic process. I get to tell my elected officials that they did a good/bad job by writing letters, protesting and most importantly threatening their job security at the ballot box. Perhaps I should focus more on yelling at the Republican party as a whole. As the figurehead, any hit to Bush trickles down to the rest.
The Dems and the Republicans were not similarly situated regarding the pressure they were under to go along with things. And the Dems who even supported the war in the beginning have at least said that they were wrong to do so (many of them anyway).

With the car analogy, the after the fact blaming can have no tangible consequences or benefits to the passenger. Here, there is a tangible consequence of who will be leading this country in a year+.

[caspian_x]

No worries. I'm not offended, just bemused. I'm about as Protestant as you can be.

Yes, I suppose the republican connection is there, but you were saying it doesn't excuse this administration, not Republicans in general. I gather the reason you can't say the latter is because many Democrats voted to go to war as well.

Also, I don't think you can really call Bush the figurehead of the Republican party anymore. After is immigration insanity, Republicans are counting the days until he leaves office along with Democrats.

[kaali_thara]

for the most part I don't have to be too mad at my party since my Senator is Russ. *salute* Also why I support Barack over Clinton.

Too many Republicans toed the party line even long after the lies had started coming out. This administration tricked the nation, lied and disseminated false information. I can forgive anyone for trusting that he wouldn't be so amoral. But when the Republicans refused to acknowledge it and instead called Democrats and the EVIL LIBERALS unAmerican because we didn't like being lied to and believe that it is every citizen's right to question the government and hold our political leaders accountable...

Let's just say it will be a long time before I forget the way the Republicans abused 9/11.

[caspian_x]

You and a lot of other liberals throw around the word LIES a lot. To what exactly are you referring? The whole freaking world believed Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs. I hope you're not referring to anything with Joe Wilson, because that'd be laughable. And no one that I know of, not even Ann Coulter (who I follow pretty closely) accuses anyone of being evil or unpatriotic for questioning government. It's when liberals use the term "flag-waving" as a derogatory epithet or start vandalizing war memorials or organizing war protests on Memorial Day that we get tetchy. We honor the right to question government as much as you (because trust me, if there is a Democrat in office in 2008, we'll be employing that right. A LOT).

[kaali_thara]

I remember being called unpatriotic during the build up to war. I remember it very clearly. I remember it happening on tv and in the street. I remember being told that I hate America.

As far as lies, if we are limiting the discussion to Iraq, I am thinking in particular of the State of the Union discussion of attempts to obtain plutonium, despite the fact that our government already knew that the tip was unsubstantiated.

[caspian_x]

I'm not saying no one ever called a war protester unpatriotic. I'm sure that happens. But I'm talking about anyone of real consequence, not just random right wing nutjobs. And were they talking about dissent or questionning or the crap that I listed above? Because yes, the crap I listed above is unpatriotic.

Our government "knew" that the tip was unsubstantiated? Are you talking about Iraq's attempts to get yellowcake from Niger? Because that wasn't unsubstantiated. Joe Wilson said it was unsubstantiated, but he's about as reliable as a compass in a magnet shop. A bipartisan Senate Committee later confirmed that Wilson was wrong. Iraq was seeking to expand commercial relations with Niger. Guess what Niger's only export is? Enriched uranium. Gee, I wonder what Saddam wanted... Any other lies from the man?

[ubersaurus]

Anyone calling another unpatriotic is of consequence, because it only takes one person to start a riot, a witch hunt, or any sort of violence. And considering the way that ALL the news outlets were getting behind this drumbeat, this march to war, it made the anti-war people seem weaker and less numerous. It's that divide and conquer regiment that the Republican party had virtually mastered.

I was once told I hated America and should get the fuck out and go to Canada or Britain before, in high school, by the motherfucking ROTC sergeant. How do you think I felt, being pulled out of an assembly honoring me, among others? How do you think I felt being singled out because I didn't want to stand for a stupid piece of cloth? Does the fact that fabric is just fabric make me hate the Constitution? Quite frankly, I'm surprised Sarge's posse didn't beat the shit out of me.

Incidentally, he loved America so much, he went to prison for having sex with a minor.

[caspian_x]

And although I don't think either one is qualified to be president, I applaud your support of Obama over Hillary. I think they'd both be terrible presidents, but Obama is marginally better than Comrade Clinton.