I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend with my opinion on that. I think because I am flexible with my own pairing and don't really care who bottoms or tops in a fic that it seems to me something that isn't typically warned for or doesn't have to be.
But you know, maybe there are a lot of people who feel like you and if that's the case then perhaps I should start warning for it. I'm just so accustomed to having the characters switch between stories or even within the same story that it really is one of those things that don't faze me at all. I honestly don't think of it as being on the same plane as a sexual kink or character death or something that can be potentially triggering, I just really look at it as a position and really nothing more, that other people may have strong reactions to it is something that's very difficult for me to grasp.
But again, you've given me something to think about and I'm always open to being wrong about something if I am. I'm very fond of you and the last thing I wanted to do was piss you off. I didn't take into account that people might be upset by topping/bottoming set ups beyond just being angry that a story didn't go the way they wanted it to.
The whole top/bottom thing is a bit of a mystery-it's not sexual kink like IDK watersports. It's not a genre either, like "Fluff".
Maybe it's about power balance and heteronormativity? Like some people just want Snape to be "The MAN"? Or something?
It's one of those things I am influenced/affected by in my reading/writing but I can't even explain it.
Years ago I once got a serious comment on my Snarries on ffnet or adultffnet because for a time I refused to tag my fics. I felt there are so many Bottom!Harry fics out there that don't warn for Bottom!Harry so I don't need to warn for Bottom!Snape. In hindsight it was an exercise in retaliation? Obviously pretty futile as these things go.
The commenter was seriously squicked, because they just found the idea of the older guy bottoming for the younger guy really disturbing. I've never seen this angle before but that was when I started thinking of topping/bottoming as somehow preserving our heteronormative markers or so? Like we need someone to be the male and someone to be the female? Although it's slash?
I know I like my Snape as a bottom. He's the power bottom of the HP fandom. In recent years however I warmed up to Sirius bottoming for Severus. I have no idea why and how but it happened.
Seriously, it doesn't make much sense ... I can't really find the right words or I can't properly rationalise it, so I totally understand when others don't understand either why people make a fuss about this whole issue.
It's not as I make a lot of sense :P
I do feel a bit self-conscious about it too so sorry if I went on to a rant here-I think it's because I commented on that topic on my tumblr a few days ago and the whole top/bottom thing is kind of stuck in my brain atm :/
Don't feel self conscious about it, you feel how you feel and I didn't take that into consideration before spouting off.
For me, I'm very resistant to the idea that bottoming means anything more than the character likes to get fucked in the ass. I really don't like assigning any greater meaning to it than that and I absolutely despise the notion that it somehow means that he's a lesser man than the top.
I know you feel you're having trouble explaining it but I think I understand it, and it may be why I don't have trouble with it myself or rather don't see the trouble since I don't ship or read pairings with the perception of a large age/power disparity but I could see how that might come across as potentially squicky to someone who does.
In any case, there's no need for you to explain yourself to me. You like what you like and you feel how you feel, full stop. My own biases are present in my not seeing the issues with the whole top/bottom thing. I've also always read those "How dare you make X bottom!" as entitlement where the person is angry they didn't get to see their preferred set up which does make me defensive.
And yay for warming up to bottom!Sirius in Snack once in a while. I love have them flip fuck in stories or just having Sirius enjoy a good rogering/smacking about. Every boy deserves to be taken care of sometimes. ;)
For me, I'm very resistant to the idea that bottoming means anything more than the character likes to get fucked in the ass. I really don't like assigning any greater meaning to it than that and I absolutely despise the notion that it somehow means that he's a lesser man than the top.
Not to dismiss Caro's feelings, because obviously something that's a squick is a squick, but this is exactly how I feel.
And more to her that you, there definitely are more people who freak out about Snape bottoming than vice versa and yeah, I don't "warn" for Snape bottoming any more than I'd warn for Harry bottoming. IF, as Easter's pointed out, no one attached all this baggage to what topping and bottoming means, I'd probably mark my fic as a simple indication of the position. But because people think it MEANS something, like Snape's going to be a pathetic little bitch if he bottoms, that's why I won't do it. I don't want people bringing all that excess characterization, for a lack of a better word, with them to my story.
ETA: I can't tell whether this comment is where it's supposed to be (ie in response to akatnamedeaster's comment). LOL Journaling is hard sometimes. :P
It's unfortunate but a lot of people really do have this heteronormative idea about what topping/bottoming means and assign characteristics to a character based on a position in bed. I realize that a lot of people use it as a sort of shorthand for aspects of a character's personality, but like you say, I don't want them bringing those preconceived notions to something I wrote since that shorthand isn't present in my stories.
Tangentially related, a couple of weeks ago there was an article going around about how some slash fans fetishize gay men and after reading the article I fell down a rabbit hole and ended up at a gay news site (for the life of me I can't remember which one) on an article about bottoming and one thing that was very interesting in the comments (to me anyway) were the number of guys expressing that if they're on a dating site and someone describes themselves as a "top" or "bottom", they swipe and go to the next profile. Granted, it's not some sort of scientific study, but I found it interesting that the vast majority of gay men commenting looked at versatility in bed as a must and seemed to shun the rigid top/bottom roles that fandom often seems to embrace.
I suspect that as being gay loses it's stigma (yes, there is a long way to go but generally speaking) a lot of the traditional "roles" will, if not go away entirely, just lead to broader acceptance of all manner of relationships. Like M/F where now some people maintain a traditional bread winner/stay at home, others have moved to two people working, while still others buck all of that completely--there was also a recent survey that said more girlfriends complained about lack of sex than boyfriends. I see LGBT people also deciding, you know, *I* don't have to do X because I am gay or Y because I am a lesbian and being "a top" or "a bottom" rather than just enjoying a particular sex position may be one of them. Which isn't to say that yes, some people really prefer one or the other. Which I have no issue with. But this idea that you must be one or the other or that people will say, "Oh, he's definitely a bottom". Basically the lines should be blurring in all manner of relationships gay straight or anything along the queer spectrum as well as expectations both in the bedroom and outside it. Again, not that I see this moving faster than molasses but you saying they are beginning to shun the Top/bottom roles does lead me to believe that's the case. /tl;dr
Additionally, someone a few months ago posted about topping/bottoming and I found a story about bottom shaming (which I can't seem to find at the moment... oh this was it) but the crucial point of it was, that by shaming the bottom, he doesn't get the medical attention needed--including the newer AIDS drugs which can help prevent the spread of the disease because the bottom is more likely to contract HIV than the top.
Obviously one needs to be a better writer than I am, but I do try to write actively against notions of hetero-normativity in my fics.
I have a certain ideas of what is feminine and what is masculine, I have a certain idea of power balance, and most of these ideas are not born in a vacuum but fostered by society. So even though I try, I do realise certain cliches sneak in.
Saying that, I've read very few fics where topping/bottoming has no connotation at all. A lot, if not most bottom!Harry fics do feminise Harry, some more subtle than others.
In my case one major aspect is who I find attractive. So, in HP fandom, I mostly find Snape attractive. Everyone else is (sexually) irrelevant to me. I like to write Snarries sure, but I don't really care much for Harry outside his roles as love interest for Snape. And so I sexually objectify Snape-not Harry.
Same with Thorinduil and Hannigram. To me Will Graham and Thranduil are sexually attractive, while I care less for Hannibal or Thorin.
The idea with tagging is though that you don't want to scare off a majority of potential readers/want to lead them to your fic. IDK if I were to be squicked by umbrellas that wouldn't really justify a tag because I'd be pretty much the only person squicked by an umbrella.
Same with that whole bottoming thing-I'm pretty sure that only the tiniest fraction of readers, probably less than 1% only search for "Bottom!Character X" tags (like I do)-so in the whole it's not really an important squick like i. e. scat, character death, etc.,
Saying that, I've read very few fics where topping/bottoming has no connotation at all. A lot, if not most bottom!Harry fics do feminise Harry, some more subtle than others.
I agree with you, actually. And I hate it. I probably still do it, though hopefully more subtly most of the time. Why do people have so much trouble writing two men as men? IDK but it's something I am trying to work on myself.
Saying that, I've read very few fics where topping/bottoming has no connotation at all.
I agree with this and I'm sure it's not in small part due to the fact that the vast majority of slash writers are women and we're drawing on our own experiences and the way male/female relationships are presented to us in the world. The receptive partner is by definition weaker, more emotional, usually younger, and in need of being conquered/taken care of in that world view so it's understandable that this view of what being the one penetrated "means" will be present in the way many women write the bottom in fic.
Hell, even the word penetrate carries a connotation of power. No one thinks of a vagina engulfing a penis, after all.
So, while I really don't like the idea that bottoming=feminine/submissive, I understand why it's often presented that way but damn, I wish there was a whole lot less of it. :/
The idea with tagging is though that you don't want to scare off a majority of potential readers/want to lead them to your fic.
A thought on this. One reason that I would hesitate to tag fic in this manner is because there's a part of me that would like someone who's generally not a fan of X bottoming (and without fail, the only time I've gotten comments wrt to who's on the bottom is someone mentioning that they don't usually like bottom!Snape.) to give something I did a shot and see if maybe they would like the way I did it. I know that might sound like I think highly of my own stuff (I honestly don't, I'm a good pencil slinger but not the best by any means, I know.), but in the past, I have had people tell me the like the way I write the M/M relationship I do and enjoy bottom!Snape in my work even if they avoid it elsewhere.
But obviously, those are people who aren't squicked by it, just have a top/bottom set up they prefer.
Maybe that's a horrible reason, but I admit, it's something that would bother me if someone passed on a story solely because of who's topping without giving a chance to see how the story presented it.
One reason that I would hesitate to tag fic in this manner is because there's a part of me that would like someone who's generally not a fan of X bottoming (and without fail, the only time I've gotten comments wrt to who's on the bottom is someone mentioning that they don't usually like bottom!Snape.) to give something I did a shot and see if maybe they would like the way I did it.
I encountered a few fics tagged or even recced to me as bottom!snape no doubt by well meaning people who were thinking 'oh I know she said she doesn't like Bottom!Harry but she'll like this one' ... and I had to find out the painful way that in fact they weren't which was pretty gross.
I understand the temptation: quite a lot of people tag fics in order to divert traffic to their work. Also most people think because they like something others will like it too-it's a very human notion.
I can't say how successful that strategy is because as I said before in my case it rather backfired spectacularly. Maybe in art it works better because you rarely read through pages and pages of words only to realise in the end that the only sex in that fic is bottom!Harry.
Well, it's not so much my thinking that because I like something, someone else will too, but rather as I said up thread, the topping/bottoming arrangement doesn't really carry any sort of connotation in my work. In a 50+ page comic, if there's more than one sex scene, both will be on the bottom at some point. I really don't want any one approaching my work thinking "oh X bottoms? No thanks, I don't like when he's a bottom because of whatever(the characterization often given to bottoms/he often feminine as a bottom/insert baggage that comes with being a bottom here."
I just think that tagging sexual position can come across as saying something about the role the receptive person plays in the story and that's not generally part of how I write.
Maybe it's a pairing difference? I dunno, like I said, I've only gotten "I don't usually like bottom!Snape, but I liked this!" (no one has ever made any comment one way or the other about Sirius on the bottom.)
they just found the idea of the older guy bottoming for the younger guy really disturbing. He was a time traveler from ancient Greece, where man on boy was considered normal, just part of the boy's education, but man on man or boy on man was a perversion. Event explained - time travel!
Haha. Rationally I do understand it is the more "normal/logical" thing to like: Bottom = younger/more feminine/shorter guy, Top = more masculine looking/taller/older guy ... just my libido doesn't seem to want to accept it.
But I'm sure that in real life, that's not how it goes at all. Bottom=person who likes to bottom. Top=person who likes to top. Nothing about size or age.
Obviously there is always a danger in generalising one's personal experiences but I have mostly hung out with gay guys at school, lived with them and my three best friends are gay. I know they're a small sample, but through them I obviously met a fair amount of other gay guys, be it their boyfriends, affairs or random acquaintances, and my impression was that 90% are actually bottoms who would begrudgingly top sometimes BUT the younger the guys were the more reluctant they were to admit that. A lot of them would, even before I or anyone could ask them about preferences declare that they are "tops" while the old guys just rolled their eyes. That was in the early 1990s.
However recently I've read a few things in ze internets were a lot of guys didn't seem to be shy about their preferences at all, but also not strictly limited to "top" and "bottom" any longer.
I met one 22yr old last year who enthusiastically talked about being a bottom, was amazed I liked anal sex (as a woman because I don't have "anything inside!") but was perplexed about his boyfriend who didn't like bottoming. "I'm not into topping at all, but I never say no to sex!" he said, "I just don't get gay guys who don't like to get fucked up the ass."
In the end though fanfiction is its own world/universe-I don't mean to purposefully distort the reality of gay men but I also don't want fanfiction to concern itself with reality. It's about unicorns, magic lube, romantic couples, alphas, omegas, etc.,
But you know, maybe there are a lot of people who feel like you and if that's the case then perhaps I should start warning for it. I'm just so accustomed to having the characters switch between stories or even within the same story that it really is one of those things that don't faze me at all. I honestly don't think of it as being on the same plane as a sexual kink or character death or something that can be potentially triggering, I just really look at it as a position and really nothing more, that other people may have strong reactions to it is something that's very difficult for me to grasp.
But again, you've given me something to think about and I'm always open to being wrong about something if I am. I'm very fond of you and the last thing I wanted to do was piss you off. I didn't take into account that people might be upset by topping/bottoming set ups beyond just being angry that a story didn't go the way they wanted it to.
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Maybe it's about power balance and heteronormativity? Like some people just want Snape to be "The MAN"? Or something?
It's one of those things I am influenced/affected by in my reading/writing but I can't even explain it.
Years ago I once got a serious comment on my Snarries on ffnet or adultffnet because for a time I refused to tag my fics. I felt there are so many Bottom!Harry fics out there that don't warn for Bottom!Harry so I don't need to warn for Bottom!Snape. In hindsight it was an exercise in retaliation? Obviously pretty futile as these things go.
The commenter was seriously squicked, because they just found the idea of the older guy bottoming for the younger guy really disturbing. I've never seen this angle before but that was when I started thinking of topping/bottoming as somehow preserving our heteronormative markers or so? Like we need someone to be the male and someone to be the female? Although it's slash?
I know I like my Snape as a bottom. He's the power bottom of the HP fandom. In recent years however I warmed up to Sirius bottoming for Severus. I have no idea why and how but it happened.
Seriously, it doesn't make much sense ... I can't really find the right words or I can't properly rationalise it, so I totally understand when others don't understand either why people make a fuss about this whole issue.
It's not as I make a lot of sense :P
I do feel a bit self-conscious about it too so sorry if I went on to a rant here-I think it's because I commented on that topic on my tumblr a few days ago and the whole top/bottom thing is kind of stuck in my brain atm :/
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For me, I'm very resistant to the idea that bottoming means anything more than the character likes to get fucked in the ass. I really don't like assigning any greater meaning to it than that and I absolutely despise the notion that it somehow means that he's a lesser man than the top.
I know you feel you're having trouble explaining it but I think I understand it, and it may be why I don't have trouble with it myself or rather don't see the trouble since I don't ship or read pairings with the perception of a large age/power disparity but I could see how that might come across as potentially squicky to someone who does.
In any case, there's no need for you to explain yourself to me. You like what you like and you feel how you feel, full stop. My own biases are present in my not seeing the issues with the whole top/bottom thing. I've also always read those "How dare you make X bottom!" as entitlement where the person is angry they didn't get to see their preferred set up which does make me defensive.
And yay for warming up to bottom!Sirius in Snack once in a while. I love have them flip fuck in stories or just having Sirius enjoy a good rogering/smacking about. Every boy deserves to be taken care of sometimes. ;)
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Not to dismiss Caro's feelings, because obviously something that's a squick is a squick, but this is exactly how I feel.
And more to her that you, there definitely are more people who freak out about Snape bottoming than vice versa and yeah, I don't "warn" for Snape bottoming any more than I'd warn for Harry bottoming. IF, as Easter's pointed out, no one attached all this baggage to what topping and bottoming means, I'd probably mark my fic as a simple indication of the position. But because people think it MEANS something, like Snape's going to be a pathetic little bitch if he bottoms, that's why I won't do it. I don't want people bringing all that excess characterization, for a lack of a better word, with them to my story.
ETA: I can't tell whether this comment is where it's supposed to be (ie in response to akatnamedeaster's comment). LOL Journaling is hard sometimes. :P
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Tangentially related, a couple of weeks ago there was an article going around about how some slash fans fetishize gay men and after reading the article I fell down a rabbit hole and ended up at a gay news site (for the life of me I can't remember which one) on an article about bottoming and one thing that was very interesting in the comments (to me anyway) were the number of guys expressing that if they're on a dating site and someone describes themselves as a "top" or "bottom", they swipe and go to the next profile. Granted, it's not some sort of scientific study, but I found it interesting that the vast majority of gay men commenting looked at versatility in bed as a must and seemed to shun the rigid top/bottom roles that fandom often seems to embrace.
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Additionally, someone a few months ago posted about topping/bottoming and I found a story about bottom shaming (which I can't seem to find at the moment... oh this was it) but the crucial point of it was, that by shaming the bottom, he doesn't get the medical attention needed--including the newer AIDS drugs which can help prevent the spread of the disease because the bottom is more likely to contract HIV than the top.
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I have a certain ideas of what is feminine and what is masculine, I have a certain idea of power balance, and most of these ideas are not born in a vacuum but fostered by society. So even though I try, I do realise certain cliches sneak in.
Saying that, I've read very few fics where topping/bottoming has no connotation at all. A lot, if not most bottom!Harry fics do feminise Harry, some more subtle than others.
In my case one major aspect is who I find attractive. So, in HP fandom, I mostly find Snape attractive. Everyone else is (sexually) irrelevant to me. I like to write Snarries sure, but I don't really care much for Harry outside his roles as love interest for Snape. And so I sexually objectify Snape-not Harry.
Same with Thorinduil and Hannigram. To me Will Graham and Thranduil are sexually attractive, while I care less for Hannibal or Thorin.
The idea with tagging is though that you don't want to scare off a majority of potential readers/want to lead them to your fic. IDK if I were to be squicked by umbrellas that wouldn't really justify a tag because I'd be pretty much the only person squicked by an umbrella.
Same with that whole bottoming thing-I'm pretty sure that only the tiniest fraction of readers, probably less than 1% only search for "Bottom!Character X" tags (like I do)-so in the whole it's not really an important squick like i. e. scat, character death, etc.,
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I agree with you, actually. And I hate it. I probably still do it, though hopefully more subtly most of the time. Why do people have so much trouble writing two men as men? IDK but it's something I am trying to work on myself.
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I agree with this and I'm sure it's not in small part due to the fact that the vast majority of slash writers are women and we're drawing on our own experiences and the way male/female relationships are presented to us in the world. The receptive partner is by definition weaker, more emotional, usually younger, and in need of being conquered/taken care of in that world view so it's understandable that this view of what being the one penetrated "means" will be present in the way many women write the bottom in fic.
Hell, even the word penetrate carries a connotation of power. No one thinks of a vagina engulfing a penis, after all.
So, while I really don't like the idea that bottoming=feminine/submissive, I understand why it's often presented that way but damn, I wish there was a whole lot less of it. :/
The idea with tagging is though that you don't want to scare off a majority of potential readers/want to lead them to your fic.
A thought on this. One reason that I would hesitate to tag fic in this manner is because there's a part of me that would like someone who's generally not a fan of X bottoming (and without fail, the only time I've gotten comments wrt to who's on the bottom is someone mentioning that they don't usually like bottom!Snape.) to give something I did a shot and see if maybe they would like the way I did it. I know that might sound like I think highly of my own stuff (I honestly don't, I'm a good pencil slinger but not the best by any means, I know.), but in the past, I have had people tell me the like the way I write the M/M relationship I do and enjoy bottom!Snape in my work even if they avoid it elsewhere.
But obviously, those are people who aren't squicked by it, just have a top/bottom set up they prefer.
Maybe that's a horrible reason, but I admit, it's something that would bother me if someone passed on a story solely because of who's topping without giving a chance to see how the story presented it.
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I encountered a few fics tagged or even recced to me as bottom!snape no doubt by well meaning people who were thinking 'oh I know she said she doesn't like Bottom!Harry but she'll like this one' ... and I had to find out the painful way that in fact they weren't which was pretty gross.
I understand the temptation: quite a lot of people tag fics in order to divert traffic to their work. Also most people think because they like something others will like it too-it's a very human notion.
I can't say how successful that strategy is because as I said before in my case it rather backfired spectacularly. Maybe in art it works better because you rarely read through pages and pages of words only to realise in the end that the only sex in that fic is bottom!Harry.
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I just think that tagging sexual position can come across as saying something about the role the receptive person plays in the story and that's not generally part of how I write.
Maybe it's a pairing difference? I dunno, like I said, I've only gotten "I don't usually like bottom!Snape, but I liked this!" (no one has ever made any comment one way or the other about Sirius on the bottom.)
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It's rather unfortunate :D
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However recently I've read a few things in ze internets were a lot of guys didn't seem to be shy about their preferences at all, but also not strictly limited to "top" and "bottom" any longer.
I met one 22yr old last year who enthusiastically talked about being a bottom, was amazed I liked anal sex (as a woman because I don't have "anything inside!") but was perplexed about his boyfriend who didn't like bottoming. "I'm not into topping at all, but I never say no to sex!" he said, "I just don't get gay guys who don't like to get fucked up the ass."
In the end though fanfiction is its own world/universe-I don't mean to purposefully distort the reality of gay men but I also don't want fanfiction to concern itself with reality. It's about unicorns, magic lube, romantic couples, alphas, omegas, etc.,
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