Comments | caraloup: That Fate Them Bore

caraloup

That Fate Them Bore - story 6

Jan 25, 2008 17:43

It’s been a while (a whole year, unfortunately...) since I’ve posted the last story in this series, but I’ve continued working on it meanwhile, and six additional ‘chapters’ are (mostly) finished and ready for posting. Since the gap between my last post and this one has grown so huge, I thought I should try and explain what this series is all about ( Read more... )

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slender_sail January 26 2008, 22:16:37 UTC

I have to take the story in some more, but first something from the "intro".
Free will and all the individual decisions belong to historical linear time.
Well, I disagree. First of all, "free will" and "belonging" are in contradiction - on the surface. Perhaps you mean that they only become apparent when mirrored by historical linear time - but as for "belonging", they do so solely to themselves, and in the wider myth, to Eru Ilúvatar. The way these intertwine with "fate" as the Music is when it becomes *really* interesting (pun intended). And they do so in different ways for Elves and mortals, yet this is not set in stone for all.
To my mind, ‘fate’ refers to a different temporal level, which - like the Music of the Ainur - contains a pattern of potential and possibility that unfolds over time.The Ainur are "as fate to all else" (except the kids of Ilúvatar, and less so for mortals). They are Nature, one thing derived from the previous, and patterns naturally form. The Music would, then, be fate itself; whilst the word "fate" would ( ... )

slender_sail January 26 2008, 22:46:10 UTC

Likewise when we talk of larger schemes (Gandalf's in particular), one has to ask whether Gandalf would not be troubled by the many implications of what he tells or doesn't tell Frodo. If he says "you were meant to be" then he could sway Frodo's decision, and if he says "it's just an accident" then Frodo might not find the strength to endure. So how far can you take G's word on it ( ... )

slender_sail January 27 2008, 21:17:41 UTC

Oh and (lol) there's the early LotR drafts. That's where it's at times amusing and disturbing. First, Frodo thinks he can trick the Ring into offering him the same path (fate) as Bilbo's, so that they can meet up again. Then there is the question of how to allow Gollum's character to give up the Ring to Bilbo, and that's when it's stated that you reach a level in the involvement with the Ring, where you want someone else to experience the same pain; so 'goblins' wouldn't work for Gollum's desire, because they're already so corrupted...

Umm, yuck. All these things are so convoluted, but they offer valuable glimpses into the concept of destiny.

RE: your fascinating comments on Cara's stories eykar January 28 2008, 20:27:05 UTC

I turn to the comments in Cara's LJ mainly to see what you are going to say, although it will probably be months before I have enough time off from work to comment on your comments. I think I will print them all out to contemplate. You help make tax season much more tolerable.

Re: your fascinating comments on Cara's stories slender_sail January 28 2008, 21:15:45 UTC

That just made my day ("week, umm month, uh year"). :)
No worries. I say something, then someone else tunes in when the time is right, and we have a party (provided our host Cara is ok with that, of course).

caraloup January 28 2008, 21:34:17 UTC

Thanks for giving the whole issue so much thought! I'm afraid that (for sheer lack of time) I'm not able to respond in detail right now, but I do hope that we can have a full-blown discussion of 'fate' (and all its entangled aspects) sometime - you, me and eykar and whoever else cares to join in. I should really transfer it to a separate LJ post then ( ... )

slender_sail January 29 2008, 22:43:41 UTC

Oh I see! So in the end, I was only disagreeing with the condensation itself. Quite logical... *g* (the image I had in mind when reading that "free will belongs to time", was something like little ants shouting "I choose THIS!" lol - my pride went wild and I know it does, but then again... there's the "??")

Thanks for giving the whole issue so much thought!
I can't claim it's altruistical of me at all. ;)

That doesn't make the matter any less complicated...
Someone from another fandom responded with a "It's an entangled destiny and only the Gods know the truth! :-D". :DDD Verily. But you *are* allowed to know stuff, "otherwise all would dwell in darkness".

I don't think that stepping into that place also involves giving up free will. Quite to the contrary, the choices that Frodo makes of his own free will seem to matter all the more as they engage 'fate'.Aha! Yes, that's where my mind is heading, too. Both he and Sam call on direct intervention from... *points up* But how does that work, etc ( ... )

slender_sail February 10 2008, 23:55:57 UTC

Cara, do you think in *that* case, "predetermination" would only come from those who loathe "surprises" and seek to (I don't know) "control fates"? Morgoth springs to mind, especially seen in the Tale of the C.o.H. This is an amazing thought that popped into my head, but I know I am too impatient about our "fate" discussion. ;) But take no heed. Looking to that exact moment for whenever it'll be, neutralizes my "impatient" edge, so it's more of a pleasurable anticipation. :D

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