Re: pro-lifeintraliminaFebruary 1 2007, 05:48:14 UTC
Yeah, it was as though I casually mentioned I was pro drilling in the Alaskan wilderness--that's why I was so shocked.
What's your take on:
pregnancy from rape (including any case of non-consensual sex)
cases where the mother's life is in danger from the fetus
the connection between reproductive rights and women's rights
the value determination that the life of a fetus is worth more than the life of a fully grown human
I saw a book from that show you're talking about--my friend who does my hair circe_magnifica went to the show and brought back a book. I looked at all the pictures--it was a completely fascinating show. I loved the rooster that was made up of just the rooster's nervous system! I would have loved to have seen the show in real life.
I don't get your logic about "life" and conception at all. I don't see how that could possibly be more important than the right of a fully developed, fully sentient being to have freedom over what happens in her own body, and the ability to make decisions about her own life. It's just incomprehensible to me. It would be like refusing to take antibiotics because they will kill the bacteria. At some point a decision must be made about which "life" is of greater consequence. I can't vote for the thing that doesn't even qualify as alive yet, perhaps that is grown-up-o-centric of me, but I have much more empathy for a grown woman than a single cell.
I am against eugenic abortion, for example aborting a girl because you wanted a boy or aborting a fetus because you don't like its genetics. That however, is a different issue.
pregnancy from rape (including any case of non-consensual sex) -I'm not sure. At the moment I;m leaning toward saying its ok
cases where the mother's life is in danger from the fetus -that is certainly ok, the woman comes first
the connection between reproductive rights and women's rights -I don't see how the abortion of millions of women could be good for women's rights
the value determination that the life of a fetus is worth more than the life of a fully grown human -I do not think the fetus is worth more than a fully grown human, but I think it is a life on the way that must be respected. I don't think we should have the right to say who lives and who dies. I am against the death penalty, also. For a woman not wanting to raise the child there is always adoption. The human fetus is vulnerable and voiceless. I highly doubt very many of the aborted would've wanted to be. I can't help but see abortion as the taking of a life.
Re: pro-lifeintraliminaFebruary 2 2007, 19:28:28 UTC
I don't think we should have the right to say who lives and who dies
But there is no "we" who decides--the decision is the sole responsibility of the woman making it. Just because abortion is legal doesn't mean that women are being forced to have them. The "forcing" happens only if abortion is illegal, in which case some women will be forced to do things that are harmful to themselves (either by having a baby or by seeking an illegal abortion). Pro-life means giving the government (do YOU trust the government to always act in your best interests?) control over who lives and who dies, which is exactly what you say you don't believe in!
I don't see how the abortion of millions of women could be good for women's rights
That's not what the issue is. The issue is about who controls a person's right to their private body stuff, which is EXTREMELY complex, and has far-reaching implications for the separation of church and state, general issues of privacy and what the government should and should not have control of, and giving the power of decision making to the people whom the decision will directly effect. That last bit, in italics, is critically important not just to women's rights, but to civil rights in general. Control of reproductive rights has been cited as one of the most important (positive) technologies of the 20th century because it has such a far-reaching effect on human rights.
For a woman not wanting to raise the child there is always adoption
I think that's way too simplistic. There's also the cost of carrying a child and having it, mentally, physically, and financially. Our health care system is for suck, you may have noticed. A 16-year-old who does something dumb and gets accidentally pregnant could have her life ruined forever. And what if that accidental pregnancy was by her father, who has been molesting her since she was 8? If every unwanted baby got put up for adoption that would be super, but somehow I doubt it is anywhere near the truth.
If you are pro-life but believe that it's OK for a woman who was raped or a woman for whom pregnancy is dangerous to have an abortion, then you are not pro-life. You are "pro-life under certain conditions that I get to specify, and pro-choice under other certain other conditions that I get to specify." Probably every woman in the US feels exactly the same way you do, only with different conditions that they specify (I too have my own ideas of when it is "OK" and "Not OK" to abort). However, it is not my right to force my ideas on another woman. And that is a big part of why it's a woman's rights issue.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. Human rights is a HUGE deal for me--something I'm extremely passionate about because I value it very, very deeply.
Re: pro-lifeintraliminaFebruary 2 2007, 19:35:08 UTC
I just want to add too that real sex education, free access to birth control, and legalization of sex workers are IMO a much better solution to avoiding unwanted pregnancy than abortion. If unwanted pregnancy didn't happen in the first place, there would be no need to abort it. Unfortunately, those things don't happen in our society at present for a number of reasons--many of which are tied up in the agenda of the pro-life lobby.
Yeah, it was as though I casually mentioned I was pro drilling in the Alaskan wilderness--that's why I was so shocked.
What's your take on:
I saw a book from that show you're talking about--my friend who does my hair circe_magnifica went to the show and brought back a book. I looked at all the pictures--it was a completely fascinating show. I loved the rooster that was made up of just the rooster's nervous system! I would have loved to have seen the show in real life.
I don't get your logic about "life" and conception at all. I don't see how that could possibly be more important than the right of a fully developed, fully sentient being to have freedom over what happens in her own body, and the ability to make decisions about her own life. It's just incomprehensible to me. It would be like refusing to take antibiotics because they will kill the bacteria. At some point a decision must be made about which "life" is of greater consequence. I can't vote for the thing that doesn't even qualify as alive yet, perhaps that is grown-up-o-centric of me, but I have much more empathy for a grown woman than a single cell.
I am against eugenic abortion, for example aborting a girl because you wanted a boy or aborting a fetus because you don't like its genetics. That however, is a different issue.
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-I'm not sure. At the moment I;m leaning toward saying its ok
cases where the mother's life is in danger from the fetus
-that is certainly ok, the woman comes first
the connection between reproductive rights and women's rights
-I don't see how the abortion of millions of women could be good for women's rights
the value determination that the life of a fetus is worth more than the life of a fully grown human
-I do not think the fetus is worth more than a fully grown human, but I think it is a life on the way that must be respected. I don't think we should have the right to say who lives and who dies. I am against the death penalty, also. For a woman not wanting to raise the child there is always adoption. The human fetus is vulnerable and voiceless. I highly doubt very many of the aborted would've wanted to be. I can't help but see abortion as the taking of a life.
Reply
I don't think we should have the right to say who lives and who dies
But there is no "we" who decides--the decision is the sole responsibility of the woman making it. Just because abortion is legal doesn't mean that women are being forced to have them. The "forcing" happens only if abortion is illegal, in which case some women will be forced to do things that are harmful to themselves (either by having a baby or by seeking an illegal abortion). Pro-life means giving the government (do YOU trust the government to always act in your best interests?) control over who lives and who dies, which is exactly what you say you don't believe in!
I don't see how the abortion of millions of women could be good for women's rights
That's not what the issue is. The issue is about who controls a person's right to their private body stuff, which is EXTREMELY complex, and has far-reaching implications for the separation of church and state, general issues of privacy and what the government should and should not have control of, and giving the power of decision making to the people whom the decision will directly effect. That last bit, in italics, is critically important not just to women's rights, but to civil rights in general. Control of reproductive rights has been cited as one of the most important (positive) technologies of the 20th century because it has such a far-reaching effect on human rights.
For a woman not wanting to raise the child there is always adoption
I think that's way too simplistic. There's also the cost of carrying a child and having it, mentally, physically, and financially. Our health care system is for suck, you may have noticed. A 16-year-old who does something dumb and gets accidentally pregnant could have her life ruined forever. And what if that accidental pregnancy was by her father, who has been molesting her since she was 8? If every unwanted baby got put up for adoption that would be super, but somehow I doubt it is anywhere near the truth.
If you are pro-life but believe that it's OK for a woman who was raped or a woman for whom pregnancy is dangerous to have an abortion, then you are not pro-life. You are "pro-life under certain conditions that I get to specify, and pro-choice under other certain other conditions that I get to specify." Probably every woman in the US feels exactly the same way you do, only with different conditions that they specify (I too have my own ideas of when it is "OK" and "Not OK" to abort). However, it is not my right to force my ideas on another woman. And that is a big part of why it's a woman's rights issue.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. Human rights is a HUGE deal for me--something I'm extremely passionate about because I value it very, very deeply.
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