I am sorry to make an unpopular post, and I am certainly against any hatered (besides Cheney. I find it hard not to hate him. But since he hates me (otherwise, why does he try to kill me?), I guess that's not as bad).
Anyhow, I think that your comparison is invalid. Hating people based on their color, gender, or other trait, is pure racism. However, hating people based on their *choices*, may be stupid and evil, but is not the same thing. Besides, I do not think you talk about hatred. I think you talk about labeling them as the 'bad guys'. And yes, in this case, it is sometimes okay.
If I am a pregnant woman, and Christian leaders decide for me that I should keep the baby, and I don't want to keep it, then yes, they are the bad guys, and they try to ruin my life (albeit for 'good reasons'), and I shouldn't smile at them and apologize for my different views. And the same thing goes vice-versa. If I am a Christian, and I believe that I will not go to heaven because of the sins you do, then I am entitled to be angry at you.
If someone said, "Jews are greedy" would that be racism, or hating based on the choice to be a Jew?
Similarly, many of the people who are anit-homosexual justify their hatred by saying that it's a choice the homosexuals made.
Now think about the last time you heard someone say something about Christians being stupid, or uneducated, or irrational, or the ever so condescending misguided. The problem is, that there are groups of Christians out there who are all of these things and jerks on top of it, but those labels no more apply to all Christians than the label gangster applies to all black people, or the label terrorist applies to all Muslims. When you malign the larger group on the actions/characteristics of a few, you've crossed the line.
As for your final point, there may be a sect of Christians out there somewhere that believes in collective guilt for sins, but I've never heard of them. Christianity is a very personal religion. The only sins you're responsible for are your own.
Well, that depends. Overall, your point is well-made. Certainly we commonly err in the direction of more, much more, generalizations and prejudice. But this is not to say that there are no characteristics for groups.
You ask about Jews - well, there is slight different. Believer jews - sure, they have their own attributes. Believing is a matter of choice. I do not think this hold to cultural jews, who were born that way. Just as there is a difference between Christians and people who celebrate Christmas (there is a big difference in the definitions between Jew and Christian. As an example, in my Israeli ID, my nationality is Jew, not Israeli. Btw, I do not see myself a jew.) Now whether all jews who believe in God are greedy or not, that's a different question. Is there a causal link between believing in a jewish god and being greedy? I see none.
Is there a causal link between supporting extreme form of capitalism and carrying less for the weak levels of society? I think there is. Is there a direct link between being pro-life or pro-death-penalty and taking personal freedoms and rights from people? Sure there is. It is a matter of priorities. Do people who shop at WalMart hurt the basic rights of so many other human beings? Of course, and ignoring that is hypocritical.
Now I don't say who is wrong - all I say is that some people value some rights more than others (and vice versa). And I am tired of us being soooo careful not to make any statement, that we let these things be.
Yes, if you believe in God you believe in something additional to scientific method of provable cause and effect. You may be right, I may be wrong, but this is a fundamental difference between us that cannot be left to church alone. It is not a question of where you spend your Sundays, but of how you structure and explain your world. To sum up, yes, there are generalizations that can be made, based on pure logic. No judgment.
And last, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that also according to Christianity, Messiah will come only when everyone repent. I may be wrong here, so please let me know.
Let's separate Christians into 3 broad groups. First, we have secular christians, those you mentioned above who celebrate christmas, and maybe easter, and that's about it. Then we have the radical christians, they believe some or all of the following: the earth was created in exactly 7 days, evolution is a bunch of baloney, abortion is murder, sexual deviants can't be forgiven until they repent of their wicked ways, and in extreme cases that the earth would stop turning if God wasn't there to spin it. Then we have the third group, let's call them mainstream christians. They tend to believe that God created the world, but accept science's explanation of when & how. They don't like abortion, but also focus on the needs of the women in question. Large numbers of this group are starting to become active environmentalists because they believe God gave the human race stewardship over the earth and we need to do a better job. And they have churches here in town that accept GLBT as full members in the blood and body of Christ; and even if that's rare, the majority are willing to ignore the issue and let God deal with it later.
And of course each of these 3 groups can be broken down into various subgroups. And you'll find a lot of denominations, Baptists for example, where there are congregations that are radical and other congregations that are mainstream.
To be perfectly clear; I am a member of the mainstream group, and I think the radicals are a bit crazy.
Now, for the vast majority of america's history, the mainstream groups have outnumbered the radicals by at least 50 to 1. What's happened in the last 30-50 years is that the mainstream groups have shrunk, thus all of the empty church buildings here in pittsburgh, BUT during the same time span, the radical churches have been growing by leaps and bounds. And the radicals are very good at being loud. So while mainstream christians still outnumber radicals by a small margin, the rest of the country doesn't even really know there's a difference.
Let me go ahead and add that I believe there will be a day of reckoning for those who push hate in the name of God. God is Love, and hate in His Name is blasphemy, pure and simple.
"this is a fundamental difference between us that cannot be left to church alone. It is not a question of where you spend your Sundays, but of how you structure and explain your world. " Absolutely. But is refusing to talk to the other side because they're "godless liberals" or "illiterate christians" going to solve anything?
And last, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that also according to Christianity, Messiah will come only when everyone repent. Boy! that's a loaded question. The short and sweet answer is that there is no consensus about when He's coming again. Many believe that the Word must be heard (not necessarily accepted) in all corners of the world before it happens. Some believe in the rapture, some don't. Some believe that people will get better and better and we'll have a 1000 years of peace on earth, before He comes to take us home. Some believe that we'll get worse and worse and essentially destroy ourselves before He'll come rescue us from ourselves. There is a scene depicted in several places in the Bible of separating the wheat from the chaff, and the sheep from the goats, so I'd be surprised if there are very many who believe that everyone must repent before the second coming. Personally, I'll quote my Mom, I don't know what He's got planned, but "It's gonna happen, and I'm for it!"
Anyhow, I think that your comparison is invalid. Hating people based on their color, gender, or other trait, is pure racism. However, hating people based on their *choices*, may be stupid and evil, but is not the same thing. Besides, I do not think you talk about hatred. I think you talk about labeling them as the 'bad guys'. And yes, in this case, it is sometimes okay.
If I am a pregnant woman, and Christian leaders decide for me that I should keep the baby, and I don't want to keep it, then yes, they are the bad guys, and they try to ruin my life (albeit for 'good reasons'), and I shouldn't smile at them and apologize for my different views. And the same thing goes vice-versa. If I am a Christian, and I believe that I will not go to heaven because of the sins you do, then I am entitled to be angry at you.
that's about it.
Reply
Similarly, many of the people who are anit-homosexual justify their hatred by saying that it's a choice the homosexuals made.
Now think about the last time you heard someone say something about Christians being stupid, or uneducated, or irrational, or the ever so condescending misguided. The problem is, that there are groups of Christians out there who are all of these things and jerks on top of it, but those labels no more apply to all Christians than the label gangster applies to all black people, or the label terrorist applies to all Muslims. When you malign the larger group on the actions/characteristics of a few, you've crossed the line.
As for your final point, there may be a sect of Christians out there somewhere that believes in collective guilt for sins, but I've never heard of them. Christianity is a very personal religion. The only sins you're responsible for are your own.
Reply
Overall, your point is well-made. Certainly we commonly err in the direction of more, much more, generalizations and prejudice. But this is not to say that there are no characteristics for groups.
You ask about Jews - well, there is slight different. Believer jews - sure, they have their own attributes. Believing is a matter of choice. I do not think this hold to cultural jews, who were born that way. Just as there is a difference between Christians and people who celebrate Christmas (there is a big difference in the definitions between Jew and Christian. As an example, in my Israeli ID, my nationality is Jew, not Israeli. Btw, I do not see myself a jew.) Now whether all jews who believe in God are greedy or not, that's a different question. Is there a causal link between believing in a jewish god and being greedy? I see none.
Is there a causal link between supporting extreme form of capitalism and carrying less for the weak levels of society? I think there is. Is there a direct link between being pro-life or pro-death-penalty and taking personal freedoms and rights from people? Sure there is. It is a matter of priorities. Do people who shop at WalMart hurt the basic rights of so many other human beings? Of course, and ignoring that is hypocritical.
Now I don't say who is wrong - all I say is that some people value some rights more than others (and vice versa). And I am tired of us being soooo careful not to make any statement, that we let these things be.
Yes, if you believe in God you believe in something additional to scientific method of provable cause and effect. You may be right, I may be wrong, but this is a fundamental difference between us that cannot be left to church alone. It is not a question of where you spend your Sundays, but of how you structure and explain your world.
To sum up, yes, there are generalizations that can be made, based on pure logic. No judgment.
And last, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that also according to Christianity, Messiah will come only when everyone repent. I may be wrong here, so please let me know.
Reply
Let's separate Christians into 3 broad groups. First, we have secular christians, those you mentioned above who celebrate christmas, and maybe easter, and that's about it. Then we have the radical christians, they believe some or all of the following: the earth was created in exactly 7 days, evolution is a bunch of baloney, abortion is murder, sexual deviants can't be forgiven until they repent of their wicked ways, and in extreme cases that the earth would stop turning if God wasn't there to spin it. Then we have the third group, let's call them mainstream christians. They tend to believe that God created the world, but accept science's explanation of when & how. They don't like abortion, but also focus on the needs of the women in question. Large numbers of this group are starting to become active environmentalists because they believe God gave the human race stewardship over the earth and we need to do a better job. And they have churches here in town that accept GLBT as full members in the blood and body of Christ; and even if that's rare, the majority are willing to ignore the issue and let God deal with it later.
And of course each of these 3 groups can be broken down into various subgroups. And you'll find a lot of denominations, Baptists for example, where there are congregations that are radical and other congregations that are mainstream.
To be perfectly clear; I am a member of the mainstream group, and I think the radicals are a bit crazy.
Now, for the vast majority of america's history, the mainstream groups have outnumbered the radicals by at least 50 to 1. What's happened in the last 30-50 years is that the mainstream groups have shrunk, thus all of the empty church buildings here in pittsburgh, BUT during the same time span, the radical churches have been growing by leaps and bounds. And the radicals are very good at being loud. So while mainstream christians still outnumber radicals by a small margin, the rest of the country doesn't even really know there's a difference.
Let me go ahead and add that I believe there will be a day of reckoning for those who push hate in the name of God. God is Love, and hate in His Name is blasphemy, pure and simple.
"this is a fundamental difference between us that cannot be left to church alone. It is not a question of where you spend your Sundays, but of how you structure and explain your world. "
Absolutely. But is refusing to talk to the other side because they're "godless liberals" or "illiterate christians" going to solve anything?
And last, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that also according to Christianity, Messiah will come only when everyone repent.
Boy! that's a loaded question. The short and sweet answer is that there is no consensus about when He's coming again. Many believe that the Word must be heard (not necessarily accepted) in all corners of the world before it happens. Some believe in the rapture, some don't. Some believe that people will get better and better and we'll have a 1000 years of peace on earth, before He comes to take us home. Some believe that we'll get worse and worse and essentially destroy ourselves before He'll come rescue us from ourselves. There is a scene depicted in several places in the Bible of separating the wheat from the chaff, and the sheep from the goats, so I'd be surprised if there are very many who believe that everyone must repent before the second coming. Personally, I'll quote my Mom, I don't know what He's got planned, but "It's gonna happen, and I'm for it!"
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