SPN Meta: Close watch of 5.14 and other related ponderings.
I finally got around to that close watch of the end of 5.14. So stand back! I'm going to try... LOGIC! Or something. Rampant speculation at the very least.
Here are several points to ponder regarding Season Five elements, particularly in 5.02, 5.10 and 5.14.
Horsemen, Sam, and What happened to Famine
What we know or can infer about Horsemen.
-It is possible to sever a body part from a Horseman, at least with Ruby's knife. Does the body part persist after severing or just the ring? I took a look through the relevant scenes in 5.02 and couldn't tell. There was blood, but the seperated fingers, if they were there were out of shot.
-Removing the ring ends the power over the victims immediately. Any actions undertaken while under the Horseman's influence with lingering consequences (killing people, eating oneself to death, drinking demon blood) retain those lingering consequences (guilt and PTSD, being dead, and detoxing respectively). It's not a 'nothing ever happened' resolution.
-Whether removing the ring causes the Horseman to poof away, chariot and all, or whether War ran away *ahem* 'retreated' as a tactical choice upon being disarmed to the point he could no longer maintain control over his operation isn't something that can be determined with the available evidence.
-Is a Horsemen's power being entirely bound up with their ring? Hm. I don't particularly buy that. It could be a focus object, whereby power is channeled into specific form, maybe. Based on the evidence aired though, there's no concrete way to tell. Hypothetical only. That way lies madness. Also, Alastair had a sickle from Death in "Death Takes a Holiday" or at least that was the implication. If it had served the same purpose as a ring, I don't think Alastair would casually have it, but I could be wrong.
-Famine eats souls. He gets a direct personal benefit and energy gain from his actions. What did War get from his power trip? Energy derived from chaos?
-Famine was weak, needed a guard of demons, needed to stockpile energy source, build up. Weakened state... hm. I do wonder if they all start weak when they enter the mortal plane and that's why Death has been out of the SPN 'verse news for the last while. However, percysowner suggested here in comments that Death was raised to control the Reapers so it would be easier for Famine to harvest souls without worrying about Reaper interference, which makes real strategic sense. In which case, I want a Reaper uprising against messing with the natural order led by Tessa, nowish please! :-)
What we know about Sam's power
Sam's basic bag o' trix:
-Removal from host and sending to Hell (associated hand motion, palm out, fingers slightly bent, the start of a grasping motion maybe. Directing down into the ground a the demon goes back to Hell)
-Causing pain/restraining? (associated hand motion, half-closed fist, kind of clawlike)
-Burning out/killing (associated hand motion, hand flat, palm out.)
(above screencaps from marishna, I did the rest)
The hand motions seem to be relatively consistent so far.
-More blood = more power. Sam wiped out the demon flunkies after draining the demon nurse in 4.22, and then went on to kill Lilith. In 5.14 he drained two flunkies and he's got at least that kind of power again. Is it enough to kill a Horseman? Dunno.
-Famine was not possessed by or hosting the demons (or was he?? hm, some kind of internal compartmentalisation full of souls used as batteries a la Matrix (I blame the demon suits for the Matrix on the brain), souls could be there and caught, used as energy sources in a capacitor array? o.O) Famine is in essence a soulburner. He consumes souls for energy.
Okay, sorry, back on track. Dispossession, not likely, not a possession case, demons not likely to be trying to retain position. Famine is retaining them. Sam removing the demons versus an externally willed resistance rather than the will of the demons themselves.
Famine's been expending energy. Whatever Sam did, he did just rip away a large replacement energy source, more if Famine's been snacking on lackeys who were still internalized. So one function of that maneuver was effectively to starve Famine. Which I think is a rather cool irony.
What exactly happened at the end of 5.14
-Sam expending effort. Closed fist. If the hand positions are consistent, this is not similar to the killing hand motion. Restraining or in this case ... gaining a better grip to pull against Famine's will?
-Famine expressing shock or pain
-Demon smoke escaping from a location where one would not expect an orifice in a human. No blood, and 5.02 showed that Horsemen bleed, so unknown whether this is causing damage or no. I suspect it is. Hard to say.
-Sam bleeding due to effort. This happens when he's underpowered or under-trained for the situation. Given he's never tried to pull a whole bunch of demons out of a Horseman before, and is doing it on a max of two demon flunkies in his tank, so to speak, understandable to have a bleed.
Now. Things go 'splody:
-Early boom
-Mid-splody boom
-After boom. Ish.
Famine still corporeally present at the end there, and looks about as in one piece as he did at the start, just more slumpy.
-Sam hangs on a beat after things stop exploding, implying there's something still there to be hung onto. Maybe making sure the demons are gone rather than hanging around as an available food source.
-Dean's eyeline says something is there. It could be the empty chair, but I don't think so.
So. Famine's either knocked out or dead, yet without a vanishing act. I would say KO'd, because while Dean and Castiel's reactions are very much 'OMGWTFBBQ!?!' immediately afterward, the subsequent later reaction of Dean at the junkyard doesn't seem quite freaked enough for Sam to have flat-out killed Famine. Dean's an expert suppressor and masker though. Castiel is maybe a better barometer in this case, and he seems more worried about Dean and Sam than freaking out, although he's not very emotional and has a very different perspective on things, so... arg.
I say Famine was just knocked out, not killed by Sam. I think Dean and Castiel's reactions would have been different if the case had been otherwise, and I think Famine would have gone poof if he'd been dead.
Now, just watch. 5.15 will air and they'll all be going "OMG I can't believe Sam killed a Horseman with his brain!" just to spite me.
(One more thing. I noticed Dean's reaction to Sam in the reaction post, but until I did this close watch, I missed Castiel's expression.
Oh wow. Sam is hooped.)
Anyway. No doubt this has all already been discussed to death, but that's my random thoughts about it.
(PLEASE, NO SPOILERS OR REFERENCES TO SPOILERY MATERIAL IN COMMENTS! The definition of spoiler for this journal is located in left hand sidebar and includes references to promo material as spoilers. Theory and speculation based on aired episodes only.)
Here are several points to ponder regarding Season Five elements, particularly in 5.02, 5.10 and 5.14.
Horsemen, Sam, and What happened to Famine
What we know or can infer about Horsemen.
-It is possible to sever a body part from a Horseman, at least with Ruby's knife. Does the body part persist after severing or just the ring? I took a look through the relevant scenes in 5.02 and couldn't tell. There was blood, but the seperated fingers, if they were there were out of shot.
-Removing the ring ends the power over the victims immediately. Any actions undertaken while under the Horseman's influence with lingering consequences (killing people, eating oneself to death, drinking demon blood) retain those lingering consequences (guilt and PTSD, being dead, and detoxing respectively). It's not a 'nothing ever happened' resolution.
-Whether removing the ring causes the Horseman to poof away, chariot and all, or whether War ran away *ahem* 'retreated' as a tactical choice upon being disarmed to the point he could no longer maintain control over his operation isn't something that can be determined with the available evidence.
-Is a Horsemen's power being entirely bound up with their ring? Hm. I don't particularly buy that. It could be a focus object, whereby power is channeled into specific form, maybe. Based on the evidence aired though, there's no concrete way to tell. Hypothetical only. That way lies madness. Also, Alastair had a sickle from Death in "Death Takes a Holiday" or at least that was the implication. If it had served the same purpose as a ring, I don't think Alastair would casually have it, but I could be wrong.
-Famine eats souls. He gets a direct personal benefit and energy gain from his actions. What did War get from his power trip? Energy derived from chaos?
-Famine was weak, needed a guard of demons, needed to stockpile energy source, build up. Weakened state... hm. I do wonder if they all start weak when they enter the mortal plane and that's why Death has been out of the SPN 'verse news for the last while. However, percysowner suggested here in comments that Death was raised to control the Reapers so it would be easier for Famine to harvest souls without worrying about Reaper interference, which makes real strategic sense. In which case, I want a Reaper uprising against messing with the natural order led by Tessa, nowish please! :-)
What we know about Sam's power
Sam's basic bag o' trix:
-Removal from host and sending to Hell (associated hand motion, palm out, fingers slightly bent, the start of a grasping motion maybe. Directing down into the ground a the demon goes back to Hell)
-Causing pain/restraining? (associated hand motion, half-closed fist, kind of clawlike)
-Burning out/killing (associated hand motion, hand flat, palm out.)
(above screencaps from marishna, I did the rest)
The hand motions seem to be relatively consistent so far.
-More blood = more power. Sam wiped out the demon flunkies after draining the demon nurse in 4.22, and then went on to kill Lilith. In 5.14 he drained two flunkies and he's got at least that kind of power again. Is it enough to kill a Horseman? Dunno.
-Famine was not possessed by or hosting the demons (or was he?? hm, some kind of internal compartmentalisation full of souls used as batteries a la Matrix (I blame the demon suits for the Matrix on the brain), souls could be there and caught, used as energy sources in a capacitor array? o.O) Famine is in essence a soulburner. He consumes souls for energy.
Okay, sorry, back on track. Dispossession, not likely, not a possession case, demons not likely to be trying to retain position. Famine is retaining them. Sam removing the demons versus an externally willed resistance rather than the will of the demons themselves.
Famine's been expending energy. Whatever Sam did, he did just rip away a large replacement energy source, more if Famine's been snacking on lackeys who were still internalized. So one function of that maneuver was effectively to starve Famine. Which I think is a rather cool irony.
What exactly happened at the end of 5.14
-Sam expending effort. Closed fist. If the hand positions are consistent, this is not similar to the killing hand motion. Restraining or in this case ... gaining a better grip to pull against Famine's will?
-Famine expressing shock or pain
-Demon smoke escaping from a location where one would not expect an orifice in a human. No blood, and 5.02 showed that Horsemen bleed, so unknown whether this is causing damage or no. I suspect it is. Hard to say.
-Sam bleeding due to effort. This happens when he's underpowered or under-trained for the situation. Given he's never tried to pull a whole bunch of demons out of a Horseman before, and is doing it on a max of two demon flunkies in his tank, so to speak, understandable to have a bleed.
Now. Things go 'splody:
-Early boom
-Mid-splody boom
-After boom. Ish.
Famine still corporeally present at the end there, and looks about as in one piece as he did at the start, just more slumpy.
-Sam hangs on a beat after things stop exploding, implying there's something still there to be hung onto. Maybe making sure the demons are gone rather than hanging around as an available food source.
-Dean's eyeline says something is there. It could be the empty chair, but I don't think so.
So. Famine's either knocked out or dead, yet without a vanishing act. I would say KO'd, because while Dean and Castiel's reactions are very much 'OMGWTFBBQ!?!' immediately afterward, the subsequent later reaction of Dean at the junkyard doesn't seem quite freaked enough for Sam to have flat-out killed Famine. Dean's an expert suppressor and masker though. Castiel is maybe a better barometer in this case, and he seems more worried about Dean and Sam than freaking out, although he's not very emotional and has a very different perspective on things, so... arg.
I say Famine was just knocked out, not killed by Sam. I think Dean and Castiel's reactions would have been different if the case had been otherwise, and I think Famine would have gone poof if he'd been dead.
Now, just watch. 5.15 will air and they'll all be going "OMG I can't believe Sam killed a Horseman with his brain!" just to spite me.
(One more thing. I noticed Dean's reaction to Sam in the reaction post, but until I did this close watch, I missed Castiel's expression.
Oh wow. Sam is hooped.)
Anyway. No doubt this has all already been discussed to death, but that's my random thoughts about it.
(PLEASE, NO SPOILERS OR REFERENCES TO SPOILERY MATERIAL IN COMMENTS! The definition of spoiler for this journal is located in left hand sidebar and includes references to promo material as spoilers. Theory and speculation based on aired episodes only.)