This journal is probably going to turn into my rants on American culture.

[bytwilight17]

I was lying awake, thinking about a commercial on TV I saw the other day, when I realized: it’s shows like “The Swan” that cause me to believe that American society is really going downhill. “The Swan” is fostering a discourse in American culture that I have always been fighting against: that, externally, ugly=bad and beauty=good. But even more

Comments

[bluecomb56]

allow me, if you will, to play devils advocate. i would argue that the swan has it right up to a point. i dont think plastic surgery is the devil. i think it is fine when done in moderation, and, like anything else is society it is bad when done too much. the fact that these women are embarrassed by their looks and they are given a second chance is fantastic. when you then put them in a beauty pageant and parade around their plastic surgery is where the problem comes from. why not give these people an opportunity to be able to look in the mirror?

i hate to say it, but physical attraction is more important than we like it to be. if i am going to be with someone, regardless of the conversations we can have, i am going to have to look at this girl in the morning. so dont devalue that. the way a woman treats her own body reflects on how she is going to treat me. on some level, that HAS to be there. so lets change the attitude on that level. lets teach people to treat themselves better, but lets not punish the people who arent as blessed. we have the technology, we can do something about it. but dont go overboard.

[boter]

Okay, I suppose I can agree with you there. It is a problem in society, but completely turning around might not be the answer.

[bytwilight17]

Plastic surgery isn't the devil. If it weren't for plastic surgery, my cousin would not have his nose looking exactly the same as it did before he got in a terrible motorcycle accident. It is plastic surgery for the sake of feeling better about yourself that I disagree with. Yes, the women are embarassed by their looks and our society projects that looks matter much more than they should. But in reality, looks don't last, one must learn to love THEMSELVES as people. Only then can they hope to love who they are on the outside. Part of the problem is these women feel ashamed about their personalities because of their exteriors. When they are 80 years old, then will they feel ashamed about themselves again just because their supermodel looks are gone? This is where "The Swan's" real problems lie.

To you, maybe, physical attraction is more important than you'd like it to be. For me, if I'm going to spend 60, possibly 80 years with someone, you have to be able to go beyond looks. You have to love the person inside. Once you love the person inside - and I can vouch for this - external appearance CEASES TO MATTER. When you base a relationship upon physical attraction, that is called LUST. Not love. I agree that we have to teach people to treat themselves better - meaning to love themselves regardless of what society says of our bodies. We shouldn't punish the people who aren't as blessed. However, it's this discourse of American society that I hate and would want changed (while I am fully aware that this is basically an impossibility, I will still remain an idealistic dreamer).

This is fun, Adam. I like debates.

[bluecomb56]

im not saying base a relationship on physical attraction. im saying the initial attraction has to be there, at least from my perspective, or it becomes difficult for me to pursue it further. call me shallow if you like, but thats what i think. when i see a girl from across the room at a party, i dont say, "wow, what a great personality." i say, shes good looking, im going to go talk to her. sometimes shes a bitch, sometimes shes cool. but i have to think shes good looking or else i wont talk to her. and im not talking model type looks, im talking about someone i, adam j kane, thinks is attractive.

you know what show needs to be banned? average joe. because the model girl always picks the brainless abercrombie guy, after leading the computer programmer from encino on for 10 episodes. so go for personality, or go for looks, but it cant be both ways.

if im not mistaken, you wore braces as a kid (most people did these days). braces are as cosmetic as plastic surgery. people have lived for centuries with bad teeth. should we ban braces? should people who lose an eye not wear a glass replacement? it doesn't fix anything. the difference is, however, is these women on the swan may not be able to afford braces or whatever else they may need. am i saying we all should walk around looking exactly the same? absolutely not. am i saying it should be overused? no. all im saying is these women dont have straight teeth, so why not give them braces? and again, my problem with the show is when they parade these women around in the beauty peagent at the end, and declare a "winner."

[bytwilight17]

Well, initial attraction is what leads you to want to pursue a relationship. I'm not saying I'm not taken aback if I think someone is "attractive," but for the most part, being physically attracted to someone doesn't lead into a good relationship (at least in my experience). For example, I was not attracted to Glen when we first met, but only through getting to know him better as a person did I find his real worth, and hence find him attractive externally. In my experience, if you meet a girl at a party, it's not going to turn into a relationship, just a hook-up. It's not going to mean anything.

I did wear braces as a kid, but I know that for most people, the orthondontia has to do with needing to make room in the mouth for future teeth (such was my case, when I had a large space in-between my two front teeth. I wouldn't have had room for my wisdom teeth). Braces, I guess in the extreme sense, could be termed as plastic surgery. But, like you said, most people these days get them, and like I pointed out, it's mostly not so that you will have a "gorgeous smile." Though that is a bonus. Your example about people who lose an eye wearing glass replacements is exactly like the example I used before about my cousin in the motorcycle accident. His nose was almost torn completely off - without a plastic surgeon, he wouldn't look like he does today (which is entirely normal, exactly as he did before). I'm not saying ban all plastic surgery. I'm saying that much of it is superfluous and for superficial reasons that will never bring true happiness.

[bluecomb56]

but people can survive without braces. just like people can survive without cosmetic surgery. your cousin had his nose reconstruced after an accident. what if he didnt? would you think of him differently? no, but it doesnt mean he shouldnt have it. i think you are being too quick to judge the reasons the people on the swan are getting their surgery. does joan rivers need more plastic surgery? does micheal jackson? no, but it doesnt mean a majority of people are getting the repairs done for the right reasons. dont ban the swan, just stop judging who is the best at the end.

and im not down with hook ups, and dont approach girls with the intention of being a fling. it starts for me with that first glance. and if its not there in the look, then i dont think it will be there down the line. but thats just me.

[bytwilight17]

Actually, Adam, while I could have survived without braces, it would have been extremely painful. So painful, in fact, that I would suggest that braces were needed for my survival (although, yes, in the Middle Ages, people did not have orthodontia, but they also, on average, lived 50 less years than we do today). My cousin did not have his nose reconstructed, he had it reattached (to clarify). My point is that people CAN survive without cosmetic surgery, just as they can survive without medication or Ugg boots. They shouldn't NEED cosmetic surgery to feel good about themselves. Of course, there will always be people getting it for the wrong reasons and few doing it for the right ones. I'm arguing that the people on "The Swan" are doing it for the wrong reason - that they think that by changing their outer appearance, it will give them the opportunity to love who they are on the inside. I don't think the people themselves are bad people at all. I just think they are searching for happiness in the wrong places. Learning to love oneself can and should be done without plastic surgery.

I know you aren't down with hook-ups, but, honestly, I don't believe in love at first sight (like your last two sentences seem to suggest). You can't possibly know in a first glance if that is your future wife. It takes time, communication, building a relationship and learning to respect each other to establish that. Looks have nothing to do with it.

[bluecomb56]

well i havent ever watched the swan, so i dont know why these people are getting the work done. but as far as i know, these people could be the same people who get a new house on "extreme makeover." maybe they havent gotten a fair shake and need something nice. there hasnt been a rush of poor people saving up money so they can get cosmetic work done because of the swan. lets look at it this way, if we as a culture take care of ourselves, then plastic surgery wont be needed. but dont punish the people who havent gotten a fair shake. dont look at the swan as a poor relection on society, look at it as a nice thing that someone with money is doing some someone without.

and im done trying to explain the other thing, because neither of us is listening to the other.

[bytwilight17]

You can't use an example of a show completely different from "The Swan" to prove a point. "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" tells the stories of miraculous people who have dealt with more than their fair share of tragedy - and so their new home becomes their first real, visible triumph. You could argue that the women on "The Swan" have endured tragedies in the case of their looks, but like I've been saying all along, looks don't lead to true happiness. It's a false one, but I guess if ignorance is bliss, then many Americans deserve plastic surgery.

Going back to the premise of "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition," I know that many of the lives transformed are because for example, they live in extreme poverty, have experienced a death of the breadwinner of the family, have a handicapped family member surviving from a terrible accident who can't get around the house very easily, etc. These are not people who are upset with their physical features. They are people who deal with a much worse fate than that. Like I've said before, When you truly love someone, looks cease to make a difference. They aren't what's most important. If you base "possible" relationships first on whether you are physically attracted to that person, you are throwing aside infinite other possibilities that I can almost guarantee you are better than the "pretty" ones. The person comes before their looks - always.

You say physical attraction is incredibly important to wanting to get to know someone. I would argue that it should be the other way around - you get to know someone and then become physically attracted to the person they are. I don't mean to hit below the belt, but I've gotta say it - physical attraction in a relationshipp is so important to you. . . Maybe that's why you haven't got a girlfriend, Adam.

And you can argue that you haven't found "The One" all you want, but most likely, you aren't giving "The One" a chance because they don't fit your physical attractiveness mold. Again: didn't mean to hit below the belt. It was to prove a point.

[bluecomb56]

but who are we to assume why these people are getting the plastic surgery? again, i dont think we should judge the people who are getting the surgery as shallow just because they want to look better. we dont know their situation. we are both "good looking people." so it is easy for us to say that wanting physical attraction is shallow. lets give these swan contestants some more credit than that. they dont want to be "good looking" or "hot," im sure they just want to be normal.

and i think something is getting confused here. im not saying physical attraction is the most important, im saying its important initially. its easy for you, as a woman, to become physically attracted to someone, as generally you are being pursued, as opposed to being the pursuer. i need to see something, a smile, eyes, a laugh, whatever, to make me go talk to a girl. girls dont usually pursue, so its a different beast for you.

[bluecomb56]

and ive gotten to know a lot of girls, and i dont think its a bad thing that me not being physically attrated to them is a good reason to not go out with them. thats unfair. its not like im not giving them a chance, im just not seeing it.
sorry if that makes me a terrible person.

[bytwilight17]

To clarify, I'm not saying the contestants of "The Swan" are terrible people, I'm saying the premise of the show is evidence of a socially declining American culture. I'm accusing the shows producers of going around making these women feel better about themselves in the wrong way, but I am not saying these women are terrible people for wanting to be happy. Wanting happiness is only natural. I'm saying teach women to love the people they are, don't change how they look to give them false happiness that doesn't last. And, like you were saying, don't then parade them around in a pageant that judges based on their physicality.

[bluecomb56]

then we're in agreement on 99% of the stuff. where im saying let's as a culture take better care of ourselves, you are saying lets rethink "attractive." and i agree with that too. so were arguing the same point.

[bytwilight17]

Pretty much in the end.

[bluecomb56]

like i always do.

[bytwilight17]

Yeah, true. Oh, well.