Introversion & Memory

May 30, 2008 00:16

I didn't want to go on the trip with these kids, but I felt torn between my awareness that I was being too antisocial (as usual) and earning a figurative gold star on my college applications as a useful member of this particular school club. I lived a lot in my head as a teen. My home life was adrift and full of conflicting messages ever since my ( Read more... )

childhood, memories, intj

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part 1 britpoptarts May 31 2008, 15:46:12 UTC
My sketchiness seems to inversely proportional to the number of relics on hand available to stir my memory. If I kept a record, I remember, in excruciating detail, a whole host of things about an event, even if the details aren't specifically visual or verbal. If I merely observed or contemplated, or was getting news about an event second-hand, I probably will have to be nudged to remember things. So I remember sketching Dena in shades of blue and green pastels (because that was what was on the table in front of us), and discussing music with you and Philip and his brother now and again, and other transitory things like that, perhaps because we were fairly often doing such things (doing art projects that weren't assigned, or talking about books or music, or goofing off). As such, I was interested (validating Philip's theory that when we were bored, we tuned out) and also actively involved and doing something and interacting (thus underscoring my suspicion that, because I tended to be very quiet and "thinky" and observant without involving my emotions or activity myself), and those memories "stick" better. Your theory about depression and disassociation is also likely to be spot on. The worst memory holes occur around 8th-10th grade, which is when (and then shortly after) my dad died, and I was sleepwalking and deeply sad all the time. Not only did I have the congenital / hereditary family depressive issues affecting my brain chemicals, I suspect that puberty kicking in also stirred up some nonsense on that front. A neighbor deals with mental health patients, and confirms what I've thought for a while: adolecence often marks the advent of serious mental issues tied to chemical imbalances. For example, scitzophrenia often starts to manifest when the afflicted person is in his or her teens. (Add to that the fact that a lot of teens experiment with alcohol, drugs and nicotine, and are under stress, and that can be the tipping point; some kids with mental issues attempt, innocently, to self-medicate and wind up with a combo platter of issues: the chemical imbalance they inherited, plus addictions. I worked with a psych who was an addiction specialist, and her patient profiles kind of confirm this hunch.)

So a sad child who remembers thinking through how difficult suicide would be (sort of a living postscript to the Dorothy Parker poem: drugs pain you, acids stain you, nooses give, you might as well live) and deciding it was not a possible solution that would "fix" the constant "not wanting to be there" feelings may well get a wake-up call when a close family member DOES give in to 40 years of misery and tops himself. It transpires that it is not a good solution, and it isn't just the dead person who is affected by it.

One thing, as an adult temporarily placated with Paxil, that I learned was the difference between chemical depression and situational depression. Is the sadness logical and a reaction to an external event (situational) or is the sadness illogical and apparently not tied to just one thing (chemical)? What do you do when it is BOTH? As a teen, I confused external and internal causes frequently. As an adult, I'm more clear about which is which, though it is still difficult when it is both, and also clear on how suicide or self-harm is NOT a decision you can make that affects only you. It is an act that spreads out like ripples in a pond and affects dozens of people around you, often for the worse. Even when you don't value yourself, if you have any empathy or feeling left for people around you, you have to soldier on. Maybe take some Wellbutrin or some such, too. :)

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part 2 britpoptarts May 31 2008, 16:05:25 UTC
ETA: This was more of a blog entry than a comment. Will repost it that way. :)

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Re: part 1 mitchellxl5 May 31 2008, 16:40:15 UTC
In my experience, the difference between situational depression and chemical depression is exactly that - situational depression has a chance to go away, even without treatment, while chemical depression never goes away and is a chronic condition that you have to manage throughout your life. My personal experience is that chronic depression is more of a stretched-out extreme lethargy, which results in little personal productivity and really bad social interaction. The extreme clinical depression comes now and again and in this way it is a delightful combination of situational and chemical, with all the self-destruction and falling apart that makes it so enjoyable. When you struggle with both, I guess, you are starting off at a lower bar than a "normal" person, so the sinking down isn't as different from your usual demeanor as it would be for some others. Some people, it's pretty obvious when they're clinically depressed but others, sheesh, it's hard to tell!

So, I guess, sadness is logical, it's a way our mind reacts to certain circumstances, a repairing mode, I think, that is temporary and constructive - when it overtakes the mind with no end in sight, that's when it is a bad thing.

Your point about teens and inclination towards depression is well-taken. I would add to the mix the stress of coupling. Your body is pushing you to do so, but your emotional maturity is often not capable of following through. More stress - huge stress, in fact, considering that, in the teen years, you tend to look at relationships in terms of forever and being with the one and, in some cases, things that will save your life, change your life, define your life. That's stressful! All these expectations with no context! Thats horrible! And if you aren't in a relationship, your loneliness is magnified so much that it can be overwhelming, angering! It makes me want drive a car way too fast just thinking about it!

I have HUGE memory holes of my entire childhood and teenage years, no doubt spurred on by my family situation. Memory is still not a great thing for me - which is sucky for a writer! I think, in the end, Philip's theory is great for people who aren't suffering some greater malaise, but if there is something bigger going on, shit, it's a lot more complicated. The disengagement is more pathological and the answer is not so pat, you know? Especially if these issues are family ones, as I have discovered over the years. Part of it is that people of our generation are victims to such things. The world is more enlightened than it used to be (not totally there, but getting there) in regard to these things that formerly no one talked about or even saw as reasonable health issues. It amazes me that no one thought it was important for me to know that my grandmother was twice committed to an asylum and was diagnosed with schizophrenia - particularly when family members knew about similar struggles of my own and my kids! Even after I forced the issue into the open and convinced relatives to procure her 60 year old psychiatric records for me, there was still an attempt by family members to keep the files out of my hands for fear I would see certain "sensitive issues." Shame is a big part of it - a lack of empathy for states of being that just don't make sense is another.

And, over time, I have found the psychological issues in my family and my wife's are only too huge, a big lump that was swept under the rug, but someone would notice sooner or later!

I find treatment and age do wonders. Just like synapses grow in kids and dictate what they are capable of learning and comprehending, so things change in people as they enter their 40s, and I think if you've dealt with things, you may just find yourself in a better place than ever before. Being young sucks! I'm glad it's all over.

This may be obvious, but did you ever read Allison Bechdel's amazing graphic novel, Fun Home? If not, I think there is much in there for you.

And I look forward to Part 2.

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Re: part 1 britpoptarts May 31 2008, 19:26:20 UTC
In my experience, the difference between situational depression and chemical depression is exactly that - situational depression has a chance to go away, even without treatment, while chemical depression never goes away and is a chronic condition that you have to manage throughout your life. My personal experience is that chronic depression is more of a stretched-out extreme lethargy, which results in little personal productivity and really bad social interaction. The extreme clinical depression comes now and again and in this way it is a delightful combination of situational and chemical, with all the self-destruction and falling apart that makes it so enjoyable. When you struggle with both, I guess, you are starting off at a lower bar than a "normal" person, so the sinking down isn't as different from your usual demeanor as it would be for some others. Some people, it's pretty obvious when they're clinically depressed ...

Quoted because that's exceptionally astute. Situational is triggered externally, and situations can change. Chemical is triggered internally, and needs to be addressed with therapy or helpful meds. Chronic is what happens when chemical depression goes unfixed for too long. I suspect that certain lengthy situations like an abusive domestic situation, poverty, physical illness, battle fatigue, whatever, can mimic or become chronic depression as well. It may start off being external, but eventually your brain chemistry adapts to the constant stress.

Your body is pushing you to do so, but your emotional maturity is often not capable of following through. More stress - huge stress, in fact, considering that, in the teen years, you tend to look at relationships in terms of forever and being with the one and, in some cases, things that will save your life, change your life, define your life. That's stressful! It makes me want drive a car way too fast just thinking about it!

Also astute. Even if you aren't lonely per se, you are likely to wonder "what's wrong with me?" if you are single. My coping mechanism here was to focus on graduating. I wasn't interested in anyone at school in "that way," and well aware I was more of a kid than an adult, mental maturity aside, so once I convinced myself that my "job" was to graduate, go to college, and then graduate there, it didn't hurt too much...and once I was in college, casual dating happened. And serious dating happened after that.

And some people never grow up and beyond that juvenile fixation on "The One." If they have the upper hand in the relationship in some way, and feel a moment of disatisfaction, it is clearly a problem with the other person: they can't be The One if you feel less than blissfully happy at all times. It is the emotional equivalent of a unicorn-decorated Trapper Keeper. Even logically, with billions of people on the planet, why would you be so defeatist as to assume only ONE of those people were right for you?

Memory is still not a great thing for me - which is sucky for a writer! I think, in the end, Philip's theory is great for people who aren't suffering some greater malaise, but if there is something bigger going on, shit, it's a lot more complicated.

There's still shame attached to needing brain meds, or therapy, yup. We identify so much with what we perceive philosophically as "us," the mind that feels situated between our ears. A physical boo-boo can be fixed, and you can divorce yourself from a cut on your foot or broken bone. We regularly hate portions of your bodies (the outside ones) and rarely if ever cuss out our, say, livers or ear drums for not being better or more similar to the livers of our peers, unless they are "broken" somehow. Broken brains = broken selves. Scary! Especially when you see how "compassionately" the seriously mentally ill are treated.

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MOAR britpoptarts May 31 2008, 19:29:01 UTC
I find treatment and age do wonders. Just like synapses grow in kids and dictate what they are capable of learning and comprehending, so things change in people as they enter their 40s, and I think if you've dealt with things, you may just find yourself in a better place than ever before.

Perspective helps. Other differences:

* Instead of having authority figures to rail or rebel against, you are your own authority figure.
* A lot less spare time to obsess about things
* More peace with your own identity--even if it isn't "normal" in some way, you generally come to terms with that.
* More true privacy, especially if you live alone, to make your own decisions (medical or otherwise)
* It doesn't bug you as much if your co-workers are all trolls as it does if your fellow students or peer social circle are--as an adult, you can make new friends or get a new job or move, if it comes to that
* Your issues won't be written off as "typical teenage angst and bullshit" by adults
* Minor shit doesn't matter as much any more. If you get a zit, you deal. You don't cower behind your hand thinking everyone will notice and condemn you.
* It's one more thing that needs maintenance with age, not your first crisis where something isn't working right somewhere
* You have more incidents to look back on that can indicate that something is wrong, and it can't all be externally caused. If you start feeling depressed as a teen, it is likely your social and family circle are fairly stable. You'll see the same folks repeatedly. So issues *could* be caused by a toxic acquaintance or a fucked-up family. As an adult, you probably have come to realize that you are still having incidents occur but the supporting casts have changed a few times. So it might be YOU.
* As you get older, the number of people you meet increases, as does the likelihood that you'll meet someone else with similar issues. As such, there will be slightly less self-induced stigma, because you won't feel as freakishly abnormal.
* As a teen, you can indulge your moods and mope around. As an adult, you have to go make the donuts and pay the rent or mortgage.
* As an adult, comparison also comes into play. "I may have THIS problem, but I now know, perhaps personally, that some people have it a whole lot worse than I do: better them than me." That mitigates some of the misery. You CAN imagine things being worse.
* Having to be responsible for all your choices and decisions may suck, but it beats not being in control at all.

Allison Bechdel's amazing graphic novel, Fun Home

Not yet. Graphic novels have been low on my list of things to buy lately. At the top of the list, alas, is an all-new set of software for my other laptop. It's got a Trojan. I'm screwed. It will have to be scraped, reformatted, and all programs reinstalled. Same sitch as before: I don't have disks for half of them anymore. They got lost during my last moves. Naturally, much of it is high-end, expensive art and web design and music-related software. It will also take a minimum of a week to fix the Spifftop, and my virus protection will have to be consolidated, e.g. o hai, expensive MacAfee. I'm not happy.

And I look forward to Part 2.

Posted, but I had moved on to a tangent.

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Re: part 1 mitchellxl5 May 31 2008, 22:01:45 UTC


That's my understanding of how it works situational to chemical to chronic. And because of that, it's no surprise to me - forgive the tangent - that chronic depression has been on the rise in our country in the last couple decades alongside obesity. Obesity is a chronic condition that makes possible behavior that essentially stunts the creation of seratonin in your brain. And worse - over eating is compulsive behavior linked with anxiety disorders, so technically, you are starting out at that lower bar I spoke of. At a certain point, self-esteem plummets, so, with it, motivation. I guess my point is that some people can pump enough seratonin to combat the stresses, while others can't keep it up and that, more than anything, seems to be the root of the condition, with situational variables.

The One is a way of fooling yourself that something is special. It's self deception in order to make your love experience seem less ordinary, in many ways upping the love ante, making the quest seem bigger, the catch more intense. It also sets the person up for failure - who the hell can live up to being The One - it puts waaaay too much pressure on the other person to fill in the gaps. It's an unhealthy pedestal, but one that works like Cinderella's shoes, you're just trying to find the person who fits it. Yuck.

There's shame attached to all sorts of psychological and neurological dysfunction. And denial. On the other hand, if you are a broken self and you've had incidents in your life where you step out and look at yourself and see the broken self in action through the eyes of others . . . crap, that's no good! That's embarrassing! In that way, recovery is over-rated!

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Re: part 1 britpoptarts May 31 2008, 22:59:58 UTC
That's my understanding of how it works situational to chemical to chronic.

I think so. And there's still those who have the chemical imbalance at birth, either already active or lurking in wait, thanks to genetic booby prizes. I know I was depressed from at least age three, and even tried to smother myself with a pillow and drown in the tub. Did NOT want to be here at all. SERIOUS depression and misery. And, frankly, my home life wasn't bad at all. Can't even blame my brother's arrival on that, as we're 4-5 years apart in age. Wasn't unhealthy or abused. A New Age friend's take on that is that I was pissed off having to reincarnate, for whatever reason. Another spouts theories about Indigo Children and old souls and the like. These kinds of theories, of course, require that you believe in such things. I can't disprove them, but I suspect that a serotonin imbalance present since infancy is more likely. (Not that it disproves the New Age-y theories, I suppose.)

Obesity being a vicious cycle is a good point. Add to your cycle example "emotional eating" and more sedentary entertainment options and an increased wariness of strangers that make some types of exercise seem more potentially risky than others (who worried about being clipped by a drunk driver or kidnapped or mugged or raped or shot at in a drive-by when we were kids?) and shy people who want to exercise are less likely to seek safety in numbers just to exert themselves physically.

The whole "The One" concept is dangerous, because buying into it can convince people to obsess over uninterested others, prolong dead relationships, chase exes, and stalk strangers. It assumes that this "One", and a relationship, will solve all your other life problems.

To be frank, I DO do a lot better when in a relationship. It doesn't solve any problems, but a good partner is something positive to be thankful for and to be happy about. This may be because I am very choosy about relationships and prefer to be single and not date for years on end rather than dating just to date. Dates are like job interviews in my opinion and I don't like dating. The dating and "getting to know you" portion of relationships is stressful and often frustrating and unpleasant. Those folks I have been in relationships with were known to me beforehand, and I lucked out that they were pretty much the same people in relationships as they were as friends.

Even though I keep up with grooming and pay attention to how I look and act, it would be all too easy, as a depressed person, to throw in the towel and not make an effort. Another self-perpetuating negative cycle, like obesity and unmedicated, un-regulated depression.

As for seeing yourself objectively through the eyes of others...that's a good thing. Recovery can be painful and embarrassing, sure, but you're supposed to be learning, in recovery, not to worry overmuch about the approval of and validation from others. That may be where introverts have a leg up. We don't need as much social validation and interaction with other people as some do.

I care about behaving well because it is the right thing to do, not so that observers will think :my, what a good person." I'm not a "good" or "bad" person, just a person who strives to make good choices more often than I make bad ones. I care about monitoring my depression not because I'm probably being a big drag, but because there is probably a stage where my ability to be detached about it will go away, and I may resist getting help I need if I dawdle and let the chemical imbalance run wild too long.

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Re: part 1 mitchellxl5 June 1 2008, 21:27:17 UTC
A good partner can work as quality control if you care enough. I know some who seemed to care when the chips were high up there, but self-destructive dysfunction has proven far more alluring than their husband or wife. Sad. Everyone messes up, everyone has bad periods of their life, but I think a strong partner - and a strong connection with that partner - is a very important thing.

Anyhow, based on my experience as a parent, I can identify with the things you're saying about your childhood. It can manifest that early, that powerfully. I've seen it. Reincarnation! I'm a cold man of science, I blame the luck of the draw in the chemical pool.

You speak about caring about behaving and I understand, though it is possible to not be coherent enough to care - or to have it in you to exercise care about some areas but not others, cherry pick the concerns you attend to while psychological issues ravage others, you know?

I often wonder how different it is to be a teenager nowadays, when so many ways of thinking and feeling have concrete labels and processes to go through, when dysfunction is not such a mysterious component. Based on my experience with "these kids today" they are in a more enlightened and helpful place than we were - it may not be perfect, but I do get the sense that it is better, more helpful . . . although how it translates into your school experience still has so many variables that it sometimes appears to have not changed at all.

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