An open forum for discussion on homosexuality and fandom
Lots of people left interesting comments while I was doing laundry, so what do you say we just talk about this? I will make this post public on DW and LJ both, and will keep it that way for as long as I feel personally safe.
I'm not going to start with my thoughts, because they're jumbled. Instead, I'll link to the original post of neo_prodigy's, How To ( Read more... )
I'm not going to start with my thoughts, because they're jumbled. Instead, I'll link to the original post of neo_prodigy's, How To ( Read more... )
First of all, let me say that I really appreciate your points. You are starting to get at the heart of the problem for me. We've had a lot of discussions that have moved beyond scratching the surface in the past few days, but you're getting deeper into the id mess that surrounds my feelings on the subject (obviously, everyone's id mess is going to be different).
There are narratives that get played out in many different contexts. For example, the star-crossed lovers narrative that someone else brought up (god only knows where at this point - it's getting jumbled in my head) is a good example. We get Romeo and Juliet and all the het stories of its ilk, but when you come down to it, the star-crossed lovers narrative fits many people's experiences of being gay in many Western countries between about 1800 and today EXTREMELY well, and as a result, slash fandom is full of that narrative, as are published m/m romance and erotica. Why not? You and I know life is more complicated than that, but star-crossed lovers gets at the part of my id that is angry, that believes just a little bit in saying 'fuck you, world' and making it stick. It also gets at the painful reality that how one's family reacts to one's sexuality makes a huge difference in one's life and one's pride in oneself. It shouldn't, maybe. But it does. So there's a powerful connection between that trope and some fundamental problems that come with being gay today. There is a powerful need to express how the attitudes and behavior of others affects gay people in as graphic and obvious a way as possible. To translate the silent hurt into something with a voice, even if that voice is about destruction and even self-harm. It needs to be said, because people do die from this.
So is the trope common? Yes. Does it meet a need or at least speak to a problem? Yes. Is it a cliché and often stereotypical? Yes. But I have yet to see anyone tell me what harm it does unless people take it as the gospel truth of how relationships work, rather than as an archetype. If it's the only story getting told, then yes, there's a problem. But we have a lot of archetypes now.
(I say all this while preferring my big gay happy ending, because I need that. But I still appreciate what this archetype can be useful for, in all its incarnations.)
I also like how you brought up femdom. Kai would love you right now. ^_^ In neo_prodigy's view of gender (and a very essentialist view it is), women simply don't do that. Women are about feelings. Women want meaning with their sex. Women don't want to dominate. Given the amount of D/s out there in fandom as a whole and the number of women who openly identify as tops, I find this hilarious. He's simply wrong on this point entirely. A man and a woman (or two women, or multiple people including at least one woman) can and do battle for dominance in the bedroom just as well as two men. I've seen it and done it myself. I also laugh at the idea that domination must come without feelings. What? No seriously, what? Where does it say that in the manual? Oh right, there is no manual. Only some bizarre and very outdated misogynistic worldview of women as weak, mixed with some apparent fears that women will cry rape if anyone plays dominance games with them.
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I think that it's reasonable to say that no single person gets to define what is okay and what isn't, except in relation to their own body and their own space and people talking or acting directly in their space, including personal space. Outside that, I can say that I object. I can say it as loudly as I want. But I can't shut people down without first bringing in lots of points of view. I can't force people into silence. I can tell them I don't like something, but I can't tell them they can never do it again. (This is for legal acts, of course.) No matter what neo_prodigy says, he can't tell people not to slash. If he raised his points with more awareness of what slash is, the breadth of its scope and community, and the reasons for its inception, he would have a better chance of finding allies outside his current group of friends. But he first failed to remove the log from his own eye, and that is hurting his argument. (Also, omg, can we reserve the cries of "white women's tears" for situations where that tactic is actually being used? By straight people? When queer women call you on your bullshit, you don't get to silence them with that one.)
Like you, I've seen misogyny and homophobia in slash fics. I've also seen racism. Does that make all slash racist? No. It makes the specific works racist, just like it makes the specific works that engage in misogyny and homophobia misogynist and homophobic. I believe in pointing that out in specific works if the reader thinks it will actually be helpful.
I like you bringing up the cred problem. I think it's possible to deal with a subject poorly whether one has cred or not, and I think it's possible to deal with it well whether one has cred or not. A lot of it comes down to good writing or vid-making or drawing or whatever (because slash fandom, like all fandom, is multimedia). Skill affects the story one is able to tell and how well one can tell it. A lot of the worst slash fic I ever read was in Gundam Wing fandom back in the 90s, when the average age of the fandom was younger than me, and I was under 20. Without experience, we simply wrote whatever we felt like, completely unexamined and usually unbetad. The result was often a laundry list of isms. But I don't think even now I would have the temerity to tell any of those writers to stop writing. For one thing, they were exploring new kinks and finding ways to tell each other that liking those kinks was okay. For people just discovering their sexuality, that's important.
So yeah, I guess I feel that there are a lot of competing demands here, and they need to all be addressed if one is going to ask for an entire segment of fandom, tens of thousands of people (if not hundreds of thousands, if one counts the lurkers), to change how it operates. There needs to be a discussion. Saying "you cannot disagree with me" simply puts neo_prodigy out of the real discussion, while the rest of us will continue ourselves. Too bad. If he could drop the misogyny and erasure of queer women, I'd be interested in talking to him in more depth.
So, novella for novella? ^_^ *hugs*
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