Women's experiences in Thelema

[brandywilliams]

In the last week or so a couple of us have posted about dealing with sexism and racism in Crowley's writings. stevensteven made a really good point today - he said, granted that Crowley said racist and sexist things. What is the next point

Comments

[stevensteven]

"Crowley's writings encourage Thelemic men to treat the women in their lives as whores and magical servants."

While not discounting the things Crowley said that women are offended by, I and the men in the order I personally know do not feel encouraged to treat women that way, but rather take our instruction from Crowley with this:

"Make up your minds to be free men, fearless as I, fit mates for women no less free and fearless!"

When you say men are encouraged by Crowley's writings to treat women as whores and servants, I think it fair to ask which men?

I see in this post and the previous video you posted that women are not safe. If it is in the order I call on everyone involved whether as victim or witness to step forward and see that justice is done within the path of mediation. If you are speaking of events outside the order, I'd appreciate that clarification as I am sure most readers here would.

[royalbananafish]

There have been women who came forward to see that justice was done. Some of them probably got it, others probably did not

[tedgill]

I think you've identified a major attribute of this part of the work of the Aeon. It absolutely does take teamwork. Although as a Radical Feminist I tend to lean more toward Eldridge Cleaver's assessment that you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.

[stevensteven]

4) Making Thelema in general, and the Order specifically, a "safe enough" place for a woman to be is not something just women or just men can accomplish. It takes teamwork.

Are you suggesting the order is not a "safe enough" place for women? I am not trying to be difficult, but I am not seeing that, at least not in the places I have been.

[lazuli93]

Thank you for this!

I've been pondering these questions over the weekend...and composing a similar post in my brain today.

Given that Crowley is dead and cannot answer further questions, be educated about the issues of sexism, etc, or retract or amend his statements...what do we do about it?

I agree that it has more to do with how the OTO and Thelemic community wishes to address these things.

On a brief work break, so I can't go any further at this moment, except to say that this is precisely one of the points I am seeking to address in my BABALON workshop. That sexual/whore metaphors are just that, and that the practical question is "what is the sex symbolic of"...being an actual sexual whore, for myself or for anyone else, is not the point. The more people realize that the better, IMHO.

Care Soror

[jonah777]

Having taken the weekend to ponder the points of your previous post, I have had some evolutions in my attitude. I am grateful to you for bringing these items up

[asicath]

The order owns the copyright on this material and we are its sole publishers. I'm curious, which do you think would be preferable:

1. Continue to publish the material as is.
2. Publish the material as is, but add foot notes on certain paragraphs saying this is not the opinion of the order.
3. Remove the offending material without note.
4. Stop publishing any Crowley material that contains offending material.
5. Another option?

[omni_videns]

I prefer options 1 or 2, myself. I find Crowley's racism/sexism as abhorrent as most anyone else, but I think to censor or restrict access to his writings does us no benefit either.

[matertiamat]

Agreed. The need is not to change Crowley or his writings, it's to pay attention to our own attitudes and dialog. After all, we're here, alive and thinking, and have much to contribute. In my opinion it's not so much that Crowley wrote some awful things, it's that modern day Thelema is so hesitant to publicly say those things are horrible, so a person trying to work the system despite the -isms and -phobias has nowhere to turn.

What next?

[jnanacandra]

I've been thinking about this since before you posted the question

Re: What next?

[stevensteven]

I don't think it is possible to separate Thelema from Crowley, and even if you were able to what would be left?

You raise a good point about people being afraid to interpret if for others, but they really need to get over that if we are all to bring our understanding forward. One only need to look at the website of the Electoral College to see instruction for local bodies on running discussion groups to discuss the meaning of the Holy Books.

Re: What next?

[jnanacandra]

I see no problem whatsoever separating Thelema from Crowley. It owes a lot to him, certainly, but it didn't start with him and shouldn't end there either.

The words "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" may be Crowley's (or Aiwass'), but the idea and the philosophy are greater than that. To say otherwise, I believe, sells the philosophy short.

Re: What next?

[stevensteven]

What Thelema was there before Crowley and the Book of the Law?