Tension, Conflict, Motivation, and Plot: Why the Story is About Dean and We Do Know Sam
I wrote a meta thingy! :)
There’s been avid discussion about Sam and Dean and which of them, if either, seems to be favored by Kripke as well as debate about “who is the story really about”. I’ve noticed there’s been a propensity for some self-proclaimed “Dean girls” and “Sam girls” to run circles around each other, trying to prove their points. ( Read more... )
There’s been avid discussion about Sam and Dean and which of them, if either, seems to be favored by Kripke as well as debate about “who is the story really about”. I’ve noticed there’s been a propensity for some self-proclaimed “Dean girls” and “Sam girls” to run circles around each other, trying to prove their points. ( Read more... )
No problem, I don't mind anonymous comments (and anyway if you signed it, it wouldn't be :>). I did actually, about a year ago, but when I was going to post it to my IJ account I realized that I should update it since S3 had brought about some changes.
I had no idea there was even a "younger brother". My response when I first saw Sam was "WHO IS THAT?!".
Heh, I guess I did know about the brothers even before watching the show because there was so much talk about how slashy it was, and that seemed to be the real draw for people. And the relationship was definitely what drew me in, so I'm firmly in the bibro camp ;>
the motivation tiger --whose central drive is usually another character--is stuck being reactionary without the illusion of choice
Yes, I suspect this is what is probably behind a lot of the complaints about Dean's role. I remember hearing a lot of that regarding Spike when he was on both BtVS and Angel, complaints that the character was stuck simply reacting to (and being taken for granted by) the main characters. While Spike was my favorite character I really felt his best role was to be that foil, and that it was one of the things that made him interesting. However on those ensemble shows everyone reacted to the main character. Perhaps with SPN there's more friction because the set-up of the show makes them seem like equal characters whereas Dean often has spent a lot of time reacting. To see him only that way though seems to me to sell the character short.
I'd love to see Sam and Dean go head to head in S4.
I thought early on this season that's where they might be headed and I think it would be really fascinating to see. It could open up all sorts of new character development. For people who are very married to the idea of the two as a close team ala parts of S1 and S2 though, I'm not sure what the reaction will be.
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Yes, very true. I wasn't sure if I'd be able to get notified of your reply, though. And I'm lazy and don't want to recheck a post to make sure I'm not being accidentally rude by appearing to have abandoned a conversation. ;P
And the relationship was definitely what drew me in, so I'm firmly in the bibro camp
Funny enough, I wasn't aware of the slash vibe, but I did think they were gay. When I discovered they were brothers twenty minutes or so later, I had a serious "Oh!" moment.
Someone here in the comments coined the term "bibrolar" to describe those in the "bibro" camp. *dies laughing* I can't help it, any derivative of "bibro" reduces me to giggles; I'm not sure why. This fandom kills me XD.
However on those ensemble shows everyone reacted to the main character. Perhaps with SPN there's more friction because the set-up of the show makes them seem like equal characters whereas Dean often has spent a lot of time reacting. To see him only that way though seems to me to sell the character short.
I think you hit the nail on the head. In fact, I think you've vocalized exactly what astri13 is saying in her comment thread to this post. Gah. Too bad I already wrote this meta otherwise I would add that as a corollary ... maybe with a link to your IJ meta.
I also agree that this is probably a by product of a small cast. It seems like a lot of issues get superconcentrated the fewer characters presenta. I've always been curious about the propensity for some people to view the boys as direct opposites, having or not having certain things in terms of the other. For example: "Dean is charismatic so Sam isn't" or "Sam is good at research so Dean isn't." I can't count the number of times I've seen people defending Dean's "smartness" as if because Sam is smart it's assumed that Dean isn't. Even though I think these comparisons aren't true, I think they're made because it's natural to think of pairs of two as being opposites ends of the spectrum (even if they're not) because there's not a third or fourth party to provide another measure of relativity. Stick Ron from "Nightshifter" as a third brother and then I'm sure people wouldn't be saying that Sam wasn't charismatic (although he still wouldn't be as charming as Dean).
I love that this is a forum for discussion and your meta/thoughts have sparked new ideas for me.
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Ah right, yes, that is a problem.
I did think they were gay. When I discovered they were brothers twenty minutes or so later, I had a serious "Oh!" moment.
LOL! I'll bet. Oh that's funny. You know, a few months back a friend who doesn't even know the show exists stopped by my LJ while we were on the phone and said "Why do you have two gay guys on your page?" I don't think she understood why I found that so amusing.
"Bibrolar" seems very apt. I think it should go into the SPN lexicon.
Too bad I already wrote this meta otherwise I would add that as a corollary
Next year you can revisit the post -- then you'll be able to add all sorts of corollaries :D
Even though I think these comparisons aren't true, I think they're made because it's natural to think of pairs of two as being opposites ends of the spectrum (even if they're not) because there's not a third or fourth party to provide another measure of relativity.
Very good point, yes. It's the same sort of thing that happens to female or minority characters in shows when they're the only one (or two) representatives. They get loaded with all sorts of baggage that doesn't allow the characters to be individuals. Although I find it kind of amusing in a way, because it's what also seems to happen in families. Someone gets labeled the "smart kid" or the "pretty sister" or the "troublemaker" or "the athlete" or whatever, as if only that sibling has the attribute. It's one of the things that makes twin studies so fascinating to me, that inevitably twins raised apart are more similar than if they were raised together, because they felt less pressure to differentiate themselves in ways that weren't as true to their nature.
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I just peeked at your header. LOL! Wow, your friend got the gay vibe from just that picture (it's a lovely picture, btw)? The boys' chemistry seems to just radiate off of them. Actually, the reason I thought they were gay (for 20 minutes) was the distinct Scully/Mulder feel of their relationship ... almost UST, but more snarky and exasperated rather than full-out denial/suppression. Heh.
They get loaded with all sorts of baggage that doesn't allow the characters to be individuals.
Yes, OR worse, they're type cast. I was channel surfing last week and ran across a scene on some show with a middle-aged black woman with short hair, wearing stone earring and talking in a mystic voice. She was a psychic. Good old Missouri reincarnated (or maybe Missouri was reincarnated). It made me chuckle, then wish Missouri would show up and heckle Dean some more.
But perhaps the comparison game is just a natural human propensity? We're taught in school to "compare and contrast" as well as "summarize and generalize" from a very early age. Maybe we can just blame the school system for some of fandom's perceptions. ;)
inevitably twins raised apart are more similar than if they were raised together
Interesting. I learned something new. Fandom is good for amassing all sorts of disparate tidbits. :)
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or maybe Missouri was reincarnated
Good God, yes, although had the part been cast differently I suspect it would have been more archetypal than sterotypical.
then wish Missouri would show up and heckle Dean some more
Hee! I got this image of Missouri saying nothing (but picking up everything about the Deal), just standing there with her hands on her hips, staring at Dean disapprovingly until he began to squirm and bark "What?"
We're taught in school to "compare and contrast"
I could even see it being a genetic tendency, so that individuals in groups specialize and become particularly skilled in valued traits, then pass those traits and lessons on to future generations.
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Duran Duran has a fandom or would that be "bandom"? ;) I actually love Duran Duran. In fact I'm listening to "Come Undone" right now ... a song I associate with "Mystery Spot" because of the lyrics. I never thought of the young le Bon/Ackles resemblance, but their mouths and cheekbones are similar.
The other day I was thinking how much John Edwards and John Barrowman look alike.
No. Really? *does a google image search*
OMG. That is uncanny. LOL!!!
There are some truly strange pictures of Capt. Jack out there on the internet. In particular one of him (apparently) in a production of "Hair".
Kuromatic and I came to the conclusion while back that Sam and Dean have a long lost uncle ... Javier Bardem.
standing there with her hands on her hips, staring at Dean disapprovingly until he began to squirm and bark "What?"
*snork*
Of course Dean would squirm and probably scratch the back of his neck like he does when he knows he's been caught. Then he'd shove Sam forward. "Use your psychic thing, Sam, and make her stop doing ... whatever it is you psychics do." Aww, Dean. :)
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So I'm not the only one who thinks so then! I first noticed it when I was watching the Colbert Report. (He did a great job doing his version of Colbert's the Word). Yeah I could see Javier Bardem. I did think he looked rather like JDM.
Duran Duran has a fandom or would that be "bandom"?
Oh it does/did. Back in the 80s there were zines, both news oriented and fanfic ones. Rumor was the band members had copies in their homes too. One fan doing an interview reported that JT had a zine on his coffee table that had a romantic manip of him and Nick Rhodes on it. This is the oldest site I know of: http://there.indyramp.com/
young le Bon/Ackles resemblance, but their mouths and cheekbones are similar.
To be honest, I'd never noticed it until I saw my header. I'd say it was their eyes as well, both of them have huge ones and look most alike when they're being intense. Some comparisons: http://www.kraftykards.com/images/music/Simon31.jpg and http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/5065/img002df0.jpg
or http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1945000/images/_1947857_duran_pa_150.jpg and http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/5868/img004vz2.jpg
Hee! Squirmy, uncomfortable Dean is pretty amusing.
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Jet ski! Someone on my flist circulated that video. I was highly amused.
JT had a zine on his coffee table that had a romantic manip of him and Nick Rhodes on it.
Heh. That's fan appreciation for you. Almost along the same lines of Jim Beaver's "I read John/Bobby" shirt.
I'd say it was their eyes as well
O.O Mmm. *nods* That first picture is very nice. You know, I think it's the cheekbones. I really noticed JA's lovely cheekbones because of the lighting in the Dean vs. Dean dream sequence.
Thanks for the eye candy. :)
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I was floored by that one. Who knew he had that much of a sense of humor? I laughed pretty hard over Sandy's "cries his way through sex" shirt too.
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I have this verbosity "problem", but I suppose the length of this post probably made that quite obvious.
Wordiness rules, yay *G*
I think that's why Sam and Dean have been able to evolve into such round characters. And the more complex and nuanced a character is, the easier it is to be drawn to them and to stay interested. Perhaps that's part of the reason for the show's passionate following?
Interesting you bring up the postitives of a small cast. Yourlibrarian and I were just babbling about the flip side of the coin in a parallel comment thread:
Which brings me here...
It's something that fascinates me a little bit, in storytelling terms, the way each show (or film, book, whatever) must work with both the strengths and weaknesses of the format they choose. A show with many characters at its disposal will maybe have many more options for exploring a wide variety of character dynamics, but a show with a very limited cast will be able to explore those couple of characters to a depth and intensity that larger ensemble can only dream of. Pros and cons to both.
With SN...well, I watched from the Pilot, so knew they were brothers from the start. And I don't slash, so...I never had any trouble or misunderstandings there of the kind outlined above. *G* It's been fascinating to engage with a show as deeply as I have done. I usually find myself identifying with a minor character in an ensemble, and my focus then becomes wishing they would take more of a centre seat. With SN I never had that. I was a Dean girl from the start, initially because I already knew and liked JA as an actor but then because Dean himself captivated me - increasingly so as season one wore on. But Sam's hold on my affections has increased exponentially since then. And really, it's the relationship between them that fascinates me most, warped as it was from the start by the quasi-parental vibe that skewed the sibling dynamic, but always remaining fluid, changing and growing over the course of the show.
Of course, one thing that has always stood out for me is that when we meet the brothers in the Pilot, this is the first time they have ever spent time alone together as adults. They are both bringing all kinds of baggage from their shared childhood - in which Dean was one of Sam's authority figures, frequently his primary caregiver as well as his brother - but now that they are reunited as adults, they have to re-learn how to relate to one another. It's a work in progress for a very long time, for Sam especially, as he comes to realise fairly early in season one that he really doesn't know his brother at all, below the surface. As a sullen and rebellious teen it would never have occurred to him to analyse his father or brother's fears and motivations. But coming back as an adult, everything is different.
I think I've waffled well and truly off the point now, so shall shut up *G*
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Ah, a fan from day one. Excellent. I wished I would've listened to my friend who kept insisting I watch "this show with Dean" back in 2005. It took me two years to get my act in gear.
I've never been this interested in a TV-based fandom before, so I've really enjoyed digging into the visual aspects of the show and other such things that aren't present in literary-based fandoms. Of course, story structure and character analysis is fun no matter what medium you're in.
now that they are reunited as adults, they have to re-learn how to relate to one another.
Excellent point. Having Sam estranged from John and Dean for years imparted just enough separation to make things tense and slightly uncomfortable when the boys reunited without completely breaking the family bond. So in that way, Sam and Dean were almost strangers with a hugely complicated history who clearly cared about each other but didn't quite know how to make things work ... a nice push-pull tension.
I recall reading that Kripke had entertained the idea that Sam and Dean were raised apart and the story would spin from them getting to know each other starting from the pilot. I think he made the right choice to go with Sam and Dean growing up together for the reasons you stated. Plus, their shared emotional baggage gives nice depth/history to the story and allows for shared wee!Sam and wee!Dean flashbacks. :)
As a sullen and rebellious teen it would never have occurred to him to analyse his father or brother's fears and motivations.
Yes, watching Sam discover Dean and esp. John are more than just his big brother (the care taker, hero) and father (the enforcer) has been really satisfying. To see Dean relinquish his role once is also a testament to how far he has come since the pilot.
Like almost everything in this fandom, I think the converse of what you said is also true. Not only have these 3 years been about Sam discovering who Dean is, but it's also been about Dean learning that Sam is not just his little brother. Because Dean was virtually half a parent to Sam, breaking his almost-inherent instinct to protect would take years. I think S3 has been especially important for this, not only because it showed Sam taking a more pro-active approach to life, but it also demonstrated to Dean that Sam is a capable hunter. Somewhere over these last years Sam has grown up, and perhaps the time to let go is approaching--something that's hard for any parent.
The way I see Sam and Dean's relationship evolving isn't a matter of Sam only growing up to match Dean or Dean only shifting his view downward to relate to "child!Sam", but more like Sam and Dean have each changed and met in a middle ground. Each giving, each taking, and each totally getting on each others' nerves the whole time! :D
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LOLs. Man, it seems like every time I recap an argument between the brothers, I have to note that 'they are both right and they are both wrong'. It's the beauty of this show, that each character, our boys especially, has a fully rounded perspective formed by his background and life experiences, and they each interpret the world around them according to their own prejudices and preconceptions. Shades of grey abound! And there is something of truth and something of flaw in every argument.
Not only have these 3 years been about Sam discovering who Dean is, but it's also been about Dean learning that Sam is not just his little brother.
Yes, completely. I truncated my argument in the last comment to focus solely on Sam, since his learning curve back at the start of the show was the most overt and obvious, as our perspective character. And because I was going way off topic, and getting rather long and rambly for comments. But yes, the shifting dynamic between the brothers is very definitely a two-way street, as they learn and grow alongside one another, meeting very much in the middle as adults now that they have spent so much time together and managed to share and shed so much of their childhood baggage. It will always be a work in progress - Dean will always be the bossy oldest and Sam will always be the bratty youngest - but they've come such a long way and learned so very much about themselves and each other.
And that's the...okay, another beauty of the show: that process of establishing adult friendships between siblings is something we can all relate to. Those of us who have siblings, that is. But the circumstances the boys live in accentuate and exaggerate and intensify that process. It's fabulous.
For me, as well, this is the first time I've been involved with an online fandom for a show that's currently airing, and it's a fascinating rollercoaster ride!
Would you mind if I friended you? I'm usually stupidly shy about asking and just let people come to me, but I do like to talk thinky thoughts, and there's still plenty of Show still ahead of us. :)
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Would you mind if I friended you?
Oh, not at all. I'm always up for discussion about The Show with other enthusiastic people! I'll expedite the process and friend you. :) Feel free to drop by and chat anytime, my journal has an open door policy.
there's still plenty of Show still ahead of us.
Yes, thankfully! And hopefully this will be the case for quite a while.
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*friends back*
Just in time for new Show! My journal = also very open door.
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