Tension, Conflict, Motivation, and Plot: Why the Story is About Dean and We Do Know Sam
I wrote a meta thingy! :)
There’s been avid discussion about Sam and Dean and which of them, if either, seems to be favored by Kripke as well as debate about “who is the story really about”. I’ve noticed there’s been a propensity for some self-proclaimed “Dean girls” and “Sam girls” to run circles around each other, trying to prove their points. ( Read more... )
There’s been avid discussion about Sam and Dean and which of them, if either, seems to be favored by Kripke as well as debate about “who is the story really about”. I’ve noticed there’s been a propensity for some self-proclaimed “Dean girls” and “Sam girls” to run circles around each other, trying to prove their points. ( Read more... )
Oh yes. I whole-heartedly believe that Twizzle-ing should become a Thing in the SPN fandom. Or at least a cool way to give feedback?
I think I know what you mean (but maybe I misunderstood your points?).
No, I think you've gotten them. It is a complaint I've seen recently, that Sam hasn't really 'done' anything regarding the deal since Bedtime Stories, and I can understand where it's coming from. Then again, had Sam done something every episode, it would get repetitive and depressing. It's interesting from a story-writing point of view, how they'd have tried to balance that so it wasn't too much or too little.
(I have heard of just one Sam-action in the works, but I won't say what! It has been featured in a fanfic before, if you can believe that. ;) )
The Deal itself, regardless of the outcome, has certainly had a very visible impact on both boys. I didn't think about it at first, because I was expecting something entirely different, but it has been messing with the Winchesters just as much as the YED.
I think that distance was necessary in order to provide some texture to the brother relationship and contrast to the team mentality of SamandDean. I liked how it showed that, IMHO, the only way to bring down the brother Winchesters is from the inside (which reminds me of another meta I started last fall
Oh, certainly, and it freaks me out because it would be so easy for the boys to fall apart simply because they love each other Way Too Much. And I keep having a very sinking feeling that the Trickster's lesson in Mystery Spot is going to come back and haunt them in the finale because maybe Sam really will have to "let go" and I... just don't want to see that. Even though it seems like such a logical step to take right now.
One thing I love with Sam and Dean relationship with the plot is that it's like a gigantic fake out. You're busy being distracted by one of them while the other is quietly spinning away in the corner, getting ready to burst back onto front and center stage when you least expect it.
That's what I like about the show in general. <3 So much foreshadowing, but the problem is that you can't necessarily pick it all out until it's already hit you like a semi.
I had a glee!fit when watching Playthings last time because so much of the future!plot was tossed in there and came to pass, except for Dean's promise. That does not bode well...
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*grins* I totally agree! Hehe. Let's do it. Can I copy your Twizzler image so I can Twizzler people myself? I so want to do drive-by Twizzlerings! *dies laughing*
Then again, had Sam done something every episode, it would get repetitive and depressing. It's interesting from a story-writing point of view, how they'd have tried to balance that so it wasn't too much or too little.
I think what you say demonstrates it's impossible to please everyone no matter what transpires, esp. with such an active and passionate fandom. But I think the writers have done an amazing job jockeying the story between Sam and Dean and weaving the MotW episodes with the mytharc. It's especially mind boggling when you consides this is all "in progress", and unlike written fiction--which the entire body of work is recrafted before anyone sees a single word--the are no "do-overs" once an episode has been aired. Any boo-boos are our there for posterity.
I have heard of just one Sam-action in the works, but I won't say what!
GAH! Normally I'd be all over that spoiler like Dean on a cocktail weenie, but I'm trying to be good for the remainder of the season. *bites hand*
the Trickster's lesson in Mystery Spot is going to come back and haunt them in the finale because maybe Sam really will have to "let go"
I think so, too. I'm going to have the Kleenex handy when I watch the season finale. It's Dean's turn to "die" anyway. ;) IF he does "die", he won't stay dead because despite his words "What's dead should stay dead", the words "Winchester" and "Dead" are mutually exclusive just like "Winchester" and "Normal" or "Winchester" and "Fugly".
so much of the future!plot was tossed in there and came to pass, except for Dean's promise. That does not bode well...
I'm anxiously awaiting the "Sam's dark destiny" and the "PsyKid" plot thread to be picked up again. They both better be otherwise I'll be upset that Kripke jerked us around *raises fists to the sky*
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Feel free! I uh, actually google-fu'd it so it isn't even mine. (is that a bad thing?)
But I think the writers have done an amazing job ... and unlike written fiction--which the entire body of work is recrafted before anyone sees a single word--the are no "do-overs" once an episode has been aired.
I'll agree, I'm not always happy with what the writers have created but then I think about how tough their job must be when they have deadlines to meet and strikes to worry about and some very vocal fans and I realized I really don't want their job. I'd rather be a monster-maker!
(As an aside, it looks like SPN's going to have a new writer next season. His name is Andrew Dabb and going from his blog, he mainly works on comic books. That ought to make things interesting.)
GAH! Normally I'd be all over that spoiler like Dean on a cocktail weenie, but I'm trying to be good for the remainder of the season. *bites hand*
Hang in there, we don't have long to wait! New episodes start on Thursday and with all the (relatively) non-spoilery interviews and news hopping around this week, there is plenty to keep us occupied.
It's Dean's turn to "die" anyway. ;) IF he does "die", he won't stay dead because despite his words "What's dead should stay dead", the words "Winchester" and "Dead" are mutually exclusive just like "Winchester" and "Normal" or "Winchester" and "Fugly".
This is a very interesting... paradox, I think is the word I need. Because on one hand, yes, it is Dean's turn to die. And in a lot of ways, he should die because he chose to give his soul and "Winchesters pay their debts." On the other, if Sam fails him, well, Sam fails and we've already seen in Mystery Spot how Sam doesn't deal with that failure.
Plus, John dying was depressing and meaningful. Sam dying was a way to get Dean to make a deal, which in retrospect, was where he was heading the whole season long. Dean dying (and somehow coming back, because we KNOW he'll be back) might be a weeee bit overkill. And if the cycle of sacrifice is going to stop, it probably needs to stop now and Sam needs to be the one to stop it. So Sam can save Dean, which means the "sacrifice" might involve Sam losing his morality and embracing whatever destiny is in store for him, but I don't think the destiny will come up just yet because we don't have all the answers about 'what' Sam is; or Sam doesn't save Dean, except that Sam may have to deal with a great deal of guilt and Dean will (somehow) return next season, which means osmewhere along the way either a sacrifice is made and the cycle of Winchester-against-nature continues, or maybe Dean's stuck in another demon's evil plans...
So, the short version of all of that? I have no fudging idea whatsoever how they are going to wrap up the finale and it will probably involve a curveball that we just haven't seen yet. (Like Cold Oaks and the giant hell-gate last season.)
I'm anxiously awaiting the "Sam's dark destiny" and the "PsyKid" plot thread to be picked up again. They both better be otherwise I'll be upset that Kripke jerked us around *raises fists to the sky*
Same here, although in a way, I don't want that to be THE thing that triggers the brother vs. brother conflict. But then again, I want to see just what it is about Sam that makes him such a demonic target. I've always hoped for a Good Omens plot but, I dunno, it could be totally Jossed by next season. ;)
Ohoh! Did you see this by missyjack? It's not a spoiler per se, but if that's the answer and it's been hidden in plain sight the WHOLE time, oh I will be gleeful.
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Thanks. *copies* I steal images indiscriminately from the internet ... it's always good to meet a fellow klepto. lol
SPN's going to have a new writer next season.
Oo. I hope he's awesome at writing snarky angst/drama. I'm still mourning the loss of Raelle Tucker who, IMHO, really gave some of the juiciest mytharc-heavy and/or emotionally revealing episodes like "WiaWSNB", "Faith", "Salvation", "Nightmare". Gamble and Tucker made a great team.
And if the cycle of sacrifice is going to stop, it probably needs to stop now and Sam needs to be the one to stop it.
The fact that we're left pondering IF Sam will choose to sacrifice part of himself for Dean or "just let Dean go" speaks volumes for the Sam's multifaceted characterization. On one hand we know Sam will do anything for Dean, is prone to obsession, and is very much revenge driven. On the other hand we also know Sam's rational and logical (albeit less so when it comes to Dean), has the inner fortitude to operate without Dean, and tends to think in terms of long term goals and strategy (wartime acceptable losses and calculated risk).
I have no clue what's going to happen either, but I love the fact that Sam could choose to do a number of things and they'd all make sense. He's truly reaching a fork in the road. I can't wait!
I want to see just what it is about Sam that makes him such a demonic target.
I swear it's Mary. I hope she's somehow tied to the generations of psychics (who I still think should be our "forces of good"). I wrote a Mary/rose motif/psychic meta a long time ago and I'm still sticking to it. *is stubborn* I haven't read "Good Omens", but it's on my list.
Even though the whole Watchers and Nephilim idea is appealing, somehow it would be more interesting to me if the mytharc was grounded in something else entirely.
Did you see this by missyjack?
Interesting! Thanks for pointing it out. I remember stumbling on something like that a year or so ago when someone was peeking around at the props in John's motel room in the pilot (maybe it was that post or maybe it was sadelyrate?), but had forgotten about it. That would be pretty awesome if Kripke has been planting the ANSWERS right in front of our faces the whole time. Consequently, have you ever examined the close up shots of John's notes shown at the beginning of "Salvation"? Gah. Sadelyrate has a Tiny Triffles post that picks everything apart; the Show has a weird fascination with Arizona and California.
OK, I'm totally getting off topic and better stop before I hatch some left-field conspiracy theory about Mary and lost generations of psychic-cambions in the Arizona desert! lol
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Here's his blog, I'd bet that he's going to be mainly writing creepy MotW's. Which I'm all for the MotW's as long as they're fun.
I very, very much miss Raelle Tucker and I do think that the show has been different in certain ways now that she's gone. Same goes for John Shiban. Gamble does well co-writing and Fresh Blood was very good, but my goodness does she drive me muts with how many people she likes to kill off! I am glad Jeremy Carver joined in, he does very well with the brotherly dynamic. <3
I have no clue what's going to happen either, but I love the fact that Sam could choose to do a number of things and they'd all make sense. He's truly reaching a fork in the road. I can't wait!
Same here, although something tells me that his choice will be very angsty. It would make sense though, because at the end of each season Sam has always had a choice to make, and although it is the 'right' choice for him, it's the 'wrong' choice for the Greater Good and I've probably said that before and if I have, I apologize. It's the thing that sticks out most in my mind about Sam's journey from season to season. (And uh, I'm lucky if I remember things for more than a day, much less several weeks.)
But ohh, what will it be?! Will it involve going full-Darkside only to pull back at the last minute? Will it involve opening the Devil's Gate and going into hell? I demand fanfic until the answers are given!!
swear it's Mary. I hope she's somehow tied to the generations of psychics (who I still think should be our "forces of good"). I wrote a Mary/rose motif/psychic meta a long time ago and I'm still sticking to it. *is stubborn* I haven't read "Good Omens", but it's on my list
My pet theory that will probably be proved totally wrong is that Mary was indeed a PsyKid, and Sam is THE desired result after manymany generations of stronger and stronger psychics that are selectively picked off when they reach their limit. But that's probably a little too sci-fi for a horror/fantasy show?
Good Omens is all about the Antichrist being raised as a human. And although I doubt Kripke is really basing anything in SPN off of that particular novel, the book does have an interesting message about free will.
Consequently, have you ever examined the close up shots of John's notes shown at the beginning of "Salvation"? Gah. Sadelyrate has a Tiny Triffles post that picks everything apart; the Show has a weird fascination with Arizona and California.
I might have? I am so tempted to spend the summer trying to look through all the visible pictures in the hotel room in the Pilot and connect them to episodes/themes later on in the series. But that really [i]would[/i] take all summer long methinks, and would require more brains than just mine!
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I would've liked to see a Kubric and Gordon hang around. Henricksen (however you spell his name) would've been a good ace in the pocket for future storylines as he'd be a handy plot device. But I suppose with Sam and Dean Winchester officially dead, the renegade outlaw subplot could feasibly disappear.
I sort of like the fact that most characters die. Well, not because they're dead (Andy *sniff*), but because it closes off subplots, keeps the story clean and focused. Most of all it gives the impression that nobody is too precious and injects this sense of "oh no, they wouldn't, would they?" doubt. I love that! For me, it's all about upping the stakes and making things tense to the point you're on the edge of your seat because, omg, they just MIGHT kill a beloved character, but you just don't know! Anguish. :D
at the end of each season Sam has always had a choice to make, and although it is the 'right' choice for him, it's the 'wrong' choice for the Greater Good
So you're saying Sam needs to murder someone at the end of each season to save the world. ;)
But ohh, what will it be?!
I don't know, but it should involve wearing black leather. *wags eyebrows*
Mary was indeed a PsyKid, and Sam is THE desired result...
I want Mary to be a PsyKid, too. In fact, I want the psychics to be the unseen, hiding "forces of good" and Azazel was going around trying to use them for his own purposes by making them a human/demon blood cocktail (you know the saying about defeating your enemy by turning them against themselves or using their strengths against them or something like that? *voice trails off*). And now Sam being the only psychic of his generation left has the best of both worlds (I think this is where the demon virus from Croatoan will come back into play. Sam, being half human/half demon, is immune to it.) and will need to chose his side. But Dean will be used to make the choice difficult.
I am so tempted to spend the summer trying to look through all the visible pictures in the hotel room in the Pilot and connect them to episodes/themes later on in the series. But that really [i]would[/i] take all summer long methinks, and would require more brains than just mine!
That sounds like an interesting project. I would love to read what you came up with. Hugemind, sadelyrate, and I have (had?) intentions of doing a spnematography viewer's guide which would incorporate segments of sade's Tiny Triffles posts and visual-based facts/observations for each episode. Lierina offered to make title card graphics. We have an outline and ideas, but have back burnered it because of LIFE. Maybe during the summer hiatus we'll pursue it. Your idea sounds like it would fit in nicely if you're interested in collaborating. If not that's fine, too. :)
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I will miss Henrickson a LOT, but I understand that the reason he got off'd was really out of Kripke's control (Gordon too). Weirdly enough, the one person I really want to see back is the lawyer from Folsom Prison Blues. Even though I don't know anything she could do.
I'll agree with you about Supernatural being gutsy enough to leave a body count, and it is indeed realistic, but too much and the boys have no one to fall back on except themselves. In a way that's good, in another way, it's just such humongous odds...
I guess my one complaint is that as far as death of the main characters go, some of the punch is taken away. (Is that a good way to phrase it? I'm not sure...) John's death in IMToD was very meaningful and very real and left a lot of issues, but we were given closure in AHBLII and John ended up getting a 'happy-ish' ending. Sam's death also has ramifications, but the death itself lasted only a little while and I don't know yet what the full consequences will be. And if Dean does die and go to hell, the question won't be if he's coming back, but how and with how much damage.
So you're saying Sam needs to murder someone at the end of each season to save the world. ;)
No! Well, actually, now that you mention it, yes. Only that does make it suddenly very murky, doesn't it. I'm all twisted up and trying to re-think it now. ;)
I don't know, but it should involve wearing black leather. *wags eyebrows*
I'll trade the black leather for a convertible for him to sprawl out in and since Sam is full of demon blood and therefore connected to hell he gets hot easily andmust wear less clothing. *firm nod*
In fact, I want the psychics to be the unseen, hiding "forces of good" and Azazel was going around trying to use them for his own purposes by making them a human/demon blood cocktail
I'd totally love this, especially because I really do want to believe that there is some force of good out there besides a group of ragged, quite often revenge-driven hunters. And taking one of the 'good' ones is certainly one of the most evil acts the YED could commit. Here's hoping your theory is right!!
I wish you guys luck on your project, all of you are certainly better at picking things out than I am. Including symbols & such. I had to cackle with glee when sadelyrate mentioned the symbol of Astaroth in 3.09 because that's originally who Tammi was - at least as long as I'm remembering the sides right.
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Oh, Mara! I liked the fact she jabbed Henriksen (however you spell it ... you know, I write that every time, from now on it's going to be "Henricksonhoweveryouspellit") good and hard. I also liked the detective in "The Usual Suspects". It would be great if they joined forces and cleaned up the boys' criminal records so they could rejoin society at some point (I doubt that would happen, but maybe in ficland).
some of the punch is taken away
Yeah, I see your point. For sure, you start pulling your punches (killing your main characters and then repeatedly resurrecting them) and after a while nobody flinches when you make a fist. But (heh), on the other hand, it's when everyone's habituated to the "fake out" that a real punch knocks everyone flat. Not that I think Dean won't be back for S4 or anything. *knocks on wood*
But I think the big thing no matter who dies or doesn't is to is no to jerk the audience around too much. Once the writer's lose their credibility it's almost impossible to get it back. I think Kripke is hyper aware of this, which is one of the reasons why he surfs the boards and seems interested in fan reactions. Yay for conscientious producer-writer-creator-evil masterminds. :)
a convertible for him to sprawl out in
LOL! That poor boy, he could barely fit into that little car. His knees must have bruises from the dash board. I don't know how he fits into most things ... airplanes especially. My husband is 6'4" and gets leg cramps if he can't sit in an exit aisle.
since Sam is full of demon blood and therefore connected to hell he gets hot easily andmust wear less clothing.
Sweat. There's probably some sweating involved somewhere, too. How about black leather pants and a sweaty ... tank top. Yeah. A white or gray tank top. And maybe to cool off he leans up against a metal fence. Wow. Now if I only had a picture of that...
Here's hoping your theory is right!!
Forces of good (FoG) FTW! *waves FoG flag*
I wish you guys luck on your project
Thank you! :)
because that's originally who Tammi was
Yet another demon with a real demon name! This just really makes me wonder why some demons have demon names and others like Ruby and Lilith have human sounding names. Show, you confuse me! And consequently sometimes I confuse myself as to why I'm thinking about demonology, Hell's hierarchy, and demon names in the first place XD!
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