Tension, Conflict, Motivation, and Plot: Why the Story is About Dean and We Do Know Sam
I wrote a meta thingy! :)
There’s been avid discussion about Sam and Dean and which of them, if either, seems to be favored by Kripke as well as debate about “who is the story really about”. I’ve noticed there’s been a propensity for some self-proclaimed “Dean girls” and “Sam girls” to run circles around each other, trying to prove their points. ( Read more... )
There’s been avid discussion about Sam and Dean and which of them, if either, seems to be favored by Kripke as well as debate about “who is the story really about”. I’ve noticed there’s been a propensity for some self-proclaimed “Dean girls” and “Sam girls” to run circles around each other, trying to prove their points. ( Read more... )
we haven't seen Sam focused so closely on Dean's deal, Dean being so weirdly offbeat
I think I know what you mean (but maybe I misunderstood your points?). Yes, I thought we'd get more actual scenes of Sam actively persuing a solution to Dean's problem rather than just hearing about off-screen happenings (i.e. Sam saying, "I've tried everything, Dean, and I can't save you.") and getting close-ups of maudlin Sam's desperate puppy eyes. But in the sense that Dean's deal is the focus of S3 Sam's actions (the catalyst) I think we've have plenty of that (only "MM" and "JiB" have forwarded Sam's "solo" S3 plot). I hope the last episodes of the season give us some tangible Sam-trying-to-save/saving-Dean scenes because I really want to know exactly what Sam's doing/going to do. Considering he hauled Dean to a faith healer in S1, whatever Sam's supposedly been doing/will resort to should be a magnitude more desperate and spectacular. *bounces* However, I had a moment of weakness months ago and read a spoiler in a Con post... *glee*
As for early S3 Dean and his weird flippancy and Sam disconnect ... that was disturbing. It's hard for me to watch pre-"Fresh Blood" episodes for that reason. I think that distance was necessary in order to provide some texture to the brother relationship and contrast to the team mentality of SamandDean. I liked how it showed that, IMHO, the only way to bring down the brother Winchesters is from the inside (which reminds me of another meta I started last fall ... omg *runs off to ransack hard drive*). Anyway, uh, I think Sam and Dean's bro-bro convo in "Fresh Blood" dispelled some of Dean's early S3 machismo and I hope that it doesn't resurface ever for a long time.
it still seems like there is a lot of thought about themes and motivation and storylines going on in the background
YES! Or else there are just fans with out of control OCD, lol.
One thing I love with Sam and Dean relationship with the plot is that it's like a gigantic fake out. You're busy being distracted by one of them while the other is quietly spinning away in the corner, getting ready to burst back onto front and center stage when you least expect it. Sam and Dean, they're sneaky. Like mischievous children, you have to keep an eye on both of them. ;)
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Oh yes. I whole-heartedly believe that Twizzle-ing should become a Thing in the SPN fandom. Or at least a cool way to give feedback?
I think I know what you mean (but maybe I misunderstood your points?).
No, I think you've gotten them. It is a complaint I've seen recently, that Sam hasn't really 'done' anything regarding the deal since Bedtime Stories, and I can understand where it's coming from. Then again, had Sam done something every episode, it would get repetitive and depressing. It's interesting from a story-writing point of view, how they'd have tried to balance that so it wasn't too much or too little.
(I have heard of just one Sam-action in the works, but I won't say what! It has been featured in a fanfic before, if you can believe that. ;) )
The Deal itself, regardless of the outcome, has certainly had a very visible impact on both boys. I didn't think about it at first, because I was expecting something entirely different, but it has been messing with the Winchesters just as much as the YED.
I think that distance was necessary in order to provide some texture to the brother relationship and contrast to the team mentality of SamandDean. I liked how it showed that, IMHO, the only way to bring down the brother Winchesters is from the inside (which reminds me of another meta I started last fall
Oh, certainly, and it freaks me out because it would be so easy for the boys to fall apart simply because they love each other Way Too Much. And I keep having a very sinking feeling that the Trickster's lesson in Mystery Spot is going to come back and haunt them in the finale because maybe Sam really will have to "let go" and I... just don't want to see that. Even though it seems like such a logical step to take right now.
One thing I love with Sam and Dean relationship with the plot is that it's like a gigantic fake out. You're busy being distracted by one of them while the other is quietly spinning away in the corner, getting ready to burst back onto front and center stage when you least expect it.
That's what I like about the show in general. <3 So much foreshadowing, but the problem is that you can't necessarily pick it all out until it's already hit you like a semi.
I had a glee!fit when watching Playthings last time because so much of the future!plot was tossed in there and came to pass, except for Dean's promise. That does not bode well...
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*grins* I totally agree! Hehe. Let's do it. Can I copy your Twizzler image so I can Twizzler people myself? I so want to do drive-by Twizzlerings! *dies laughing*
Then again, had Sam done something every episode, it would get repetitive and depressing. It's interesting from a story-writing point of view, how they'd have tried to balance that so it wasn't too much or too little.
I think what you say demonstrates it's impossible to please everyone no matter what transpires, esp. with such an active and passionate fandom. But I think the writers have done an amazing job jockeying the story between Sam and Dean and weaving the MotW episodes with the mytharc. It's especially mind boggling when you consides this is all "in progress", and unlike written fiction--which the entire body of work is recrafted before anyone sees a single word--the are no "do-overs" once an episode has been aired. Any boo-boos are our there for posterity.
I have heard of just one Sam-action in the works, but I won't say what!
GAH! Normally I'd be all over that spoiler like Dean on a cocktail weenie, but I'm trying to be good for the remainder of the season. *bites hand*
the Trickster's lesson in Mystery Spot is going to come back and haunt them in the finale because maybe Sam really will have to "let go"
I think so, too. I'm going to have the Kleenex handy when I watch the season finale. It's Dean's turn to "die" anyway. ;) IF he does "die", he won't stay dead because despite his words "What's dead should stay dead", the words "Winchester" and "Dead" are mutually exclusive just like "Winchester" and "Normal" or "Winchester" and "Fugly".
so much of the future!plot was tossed in there and came to pass, except for Dean's promise. That does not bode well...
I'm anxiously awaiting the "Sam's dark destiny" and the "PsyKid" plot thread to be picked up again. They both better be otherwise I'll be upset that Kripke jerked us around *raises fists to the sky*
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Feel free! I uh, actually google-fu'd it so it isn't even mine. (is that a bad thing?)
But I think the writers have done an amazing job ... and unlike written fiction--which the entire body of work is recrafted before anyone sees a single word--the are no "do-overs" once an episode has been aired.
I'll agree, I'm not always happy with what the writers have created but then I think about how tough their job must be when they have deadlines to meet and strikes to worry about and some very vocal fans and I realized I really don't want their job. I'd rather be a monster-maker!
(As an aside, it looks like SPN's going to have a new writer next season. His name is Andrew Dabb and going from his blog, he mainly works on comic books. That ought to make things interesting.)
GAH! Normally I'd be all over that spoiler like Dean on a cocktail weenie, but I'm trying to be good for the remainder of the season. *bites hand*
Hang in there, we don't have long to wait! New episodes start on Thursday and with all the (relatively) non-spoilery interviews and news hopping around this week, there is plenty to keep us occupied.
It's Dean's turn to "die" anyway. ;) IF he does "die", he won't stay dead because despite his words "What's dead should stay dead", the words "Winchester" and "Dead" are mutually exclusive just like "Winchester" and "Normal" or "Winchester" and "Fugly".
This is a very interesting... paradox, I think is the word I need. Because on one hand, yes, it is Dean's turn to die. And in a lot of ways, he should die because he chose to give his soul and "Winchesters pay their debts." On the other, if Sam fails him, well, Sam fails and we've already seen in Mystery Spot how Sam doesn't deal with that failure.
Plus, John dying was depressing and meaningful. Sam dying was a way to get Dean to make a deal, which in retrospect, was where he was heading the whole season long. Dean dying (and somehow coming back, because we KNOW he'll be back) might be a weeee bit overkill. And if the cycle of sacrifice is going to stop, it probably needs to stop now and Sam needs to be the one to stop it. So Sam can save Dean, which means the "sacrifice" might involve Sam losing his morality and embracing whatever destiny is in store for him, but I don't think the destiny will come up just yet because we don't have all the answers about 'what' Sam is; or Sam doesn't save Dean, except that Sam may have to deal with a great deal of guilt and Dean will (somehow) return next season, which means osmewhere along the way either a sacrifice is made and the cycle of Winchester-against-nature continues, or maybe Dean's stuck in another demon's evil plans...
So, the short version of all of that? I have no fudging idea whatsoever how they are going to wrap up the finale and it will probably involve a curveball that we just haven't seen yet. (Like Cold Oaks and the giant hell-gate last season.)
I'm anxiously awaiting the "Sam's dark destiny" and the "PsyKid" plot thread to be picked up again. They both better be otherwise I'll be upset that Kripke jerked us around *raises fists to the sky*
Same here, although in a way, I don't want that to be THE thing that triggers the brother vs. brother conflict. But then again, I want to see just what it is about Sam that makes him such a demonic target. I've always hoped for a Good Omens plot but, I dunno, it could be totally Jossed by next season. ;)
Ohoh! Did you see this by missyjack? It's not a spoiler per se, but if that's the answer and it's been hidden in plain sight the WHOLE time, oh I will be gleeful.
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Thanks. *copies* I steal images indiscriminately from the internet ... it's always good to meet a fellow klepto. lol
SPN's going to have a new writer next season.
Oo. I hope he's awesome at writing snarky angst/drama. I'm still mourning the loss of Raelle Tucker who, IMHO, really gave some of the juiciest mytharc-heavy and/or emotionally revealing episodes like "WiaWSNB", "Faith", "Salvation", "Nightmare". Gamble and Tucker made a great team.
And if the cycle of sacrifice is going to stop, it probably needs to stop now and Sam needs to be the one to stop it.
The fact that we're left pondering IF Sam will choose to sacrifice part of himself for Dean or "just let Dean go" speaks volumes for the Sam's multifaceted characterization. On one hand we know Sam will do anything for Dean, is prone to obsession, and is very much revenge driven. On the other hand we also know Sam's rational and logical (albeit less so when it comes to Dean), has the inner fortitude to operate without Dean, and tends to think in terms of long term goals and strategy (wartime acceptable losses and calculated risk).
I have no clue what's going to happen either, but I love the fact that Sam could choose to do a number of things and they'd all make sense. He's truly reaching a fork in the road. I can't wait!
I want to see just what it is about Sam that makes him such a demonic target.
I swear it's Mary. I hope she's somehow tied to the generations of psychics (who I still think should be our "forces of good"). I wrote a Mary/rose motif/psychic meta a long time ago and I'm still sticking to it. *is stubborn* I haven't read "Good Omens", but it's on my list.
Even though the whole Watchers and Nephilim idea is appealing, somehow it would be more interesting to me if the mytharc was grounded in something else entirely.
Did you see this by missyjack?
Interesting! Thanks for pointing it out. I remember stumbling on something like that a year or so ago when someone was peeking around at the props in John's motel room in the pilot (maybe it was that post or maybe it was sadelyrate?), but had forgotten about it. That would be pretty awesome if Kripke has been planting the ANSWERS right in front of our faces the whole time. Consequently, have you ever examined the close up shots of John's notes shown at the beginning of "Salvation"? Gah. Sadelyrate has a Tiny Triffles post that picks everything apart; the Show has a weird fascination with Arizona and California.
OK, I'm totally getting off topic and better stop before I hatch some left-field conspiracy theory about Mary and lost generations of psychic-cambions in the Arizona desert! lol
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Here's his blog, I'd bet that he's going to be mainly writing creepy MotW's. Which I'm all for the MotW's as long as they're fun.
I very, very much miss Raelle Tucker and I do think that the show has been different in certain ways now that she's gone. Same goes for John Shiban. Gamble does well co-writing and Fresh Blood was very good, but my goodness does she drive me muts with how many people she likes to kill off! I am glad Jeremy Carver joined in, he does very well with the brotherly dynamic. <3
I have no clue what's going to happen either, but I love the fact that Sam could choose to do a number of things and they'd all make sense. He's truly reaching a fork in the road. I can't wait!
Same here, although something tells me that his choice will be very angsty. It would make sense though, because at the end of each season Sam has always had a choice to make, and although it is the 'right' choice for him, it's the 'wrong' choice for the Greater Good and I've probably said that before and if I have, I apologize. It's the thing that sticks out most in my mind about Sam's journey from season to season. (And uh, I'm lucky if I remember things for more than a day, much less several weeks.)
But ohh, what will it be?! Will it involve going full-Darkside only to pull back at the last minute? Will it involve opening the Devil's Gate and going into hell? I demand fanfic until the answers are given!!
swear it's Mary. I hope she's somehow tied to the generations of psychics (who I still think should be our "forces of good"). I wrote a Mary/rose motif/psychic meta a long time ago and I'm still sticking to it. *is stubborn* I haven't read "Good Omens", but it's on my list
My pet theory that will probably be proved totally wrong is that Mary was indeed a PsyKid, and Sam is THE desired result after manymany generations of stronger and stronger psychics that are selectively picked off when they reach their limit. But that's probably a little too sci-fi for a horror/fantasy show?
Good Omens is all about the Antichrist being raised as a human. And although I doubt Kripke is really basing anything in SPN off of that particular novel, the book does have an interesting message about free will.
Consequently, have you ever examined the close up shots of John's notes shown at the beginning of "Salvation"? Gah. Sadelyrate has a Tiny Triffles post that picks everything apart; the Show has a weird fascination with Arizona and California.
I might have? I am so tempted to spend the summer trying to look through all the visible pictures in the hotel room in the Pilot and connect them to episodes/themes later on in the series. But that really [i]would[/i] take all summer long methinks, and would require more brains than just mine!
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I would've liked to see a Kubric and Gordon hang around. Henricksen (however you spell his name) would've been a good ace in the pocket for future storylines as he'd be a handy plot device. But I suppose with Sam and Dean Winchester officially dead, the renegade outlaw subplot could feasibly disappear.
I sort of like the fact that most characters die. Well, not because they're dead (Andy *sniff*), but because it closes off subplots, keeps the story clean and focused. Most of all it gives the impression that nobody is too precious and injects this sense of "oh no, they wouldn't, would they?" doubt. I love that! For me, it's all about upping the stakes and making things tense to the point you're on the edge of your seat because, omg, they just MIGHT kill a beloved character, but you just don't know! Anguish. :D
at the end of each season Sam has always had a choice to make, and although it is the 'right' choice for him, it's the 'wrong' choice for the Greater Good
So you're saying Sam needs to murder someone at the end of each season to save the world. ;)
But ohh, what will it be?!
I don't know, but it should involve wearing black leather. *wags eyebrows*
Mary was indeed a PsyKid, and Sam is THE desired result...
I want Mary to be a PsyKid, too. In fact, I want the psychics to be the unseen, hiding "forces of good" and Azazel was going around trying to use them for his own purposes by making them a human/demon blood cocktail (you know the saying about defeating your enemy by turning them against themselves or using their strengths against them or something like that? *voice trails off*). And now Sam being the only psychic of his generation left has the best of both worlds (I think this is where the demon virus from Croatoan will come back into play. Sam, being half human/half demon, is immune to it.) and will need to chose his side. But Dean will be used to make the choice difficult.
I am so tempted to spend the summer trying to look through all the visible pictures in the hotel room in the Pilot and connect them to episodes/themes later on in the series. But that really [i]would[/i] take all summer long methinks, and would require more brains than just mine!
That sounds like an interesting project. I would love to read what you came up with. Hugemind, sadelyrate, and I have (had?) intentions of doing a spnematography viewer's guide which would incorporate segments of sade's Tiny Triffles posts and visual-based facts/observations for each episode. Lierina offered to make title card graphics. We have an outline and ideas, but have back burnered it because of LIFE. Maybe during the summer hiatus we'll pursue it. Your idea sounds like it would fit in nicely if you're interested in collaborating. If not that's fine, too. :)
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I will miss Henrickson a LOT, but I understand that the reason he got off'd was really out of Kripke's control (Gordon too). Weirdly enough, the one person I really want to see back is the lawyer from Folsom Prison Blues. Even though I don't know anything she could do.
I'll agree with you about Supernatural being gutsy enough to leave a body count, and it is indeed realistic, but too much and the boys have no one to fall back on except themselves. In a way that's good, in another way, it's just such humongous odds...
I guess my one complaint is that as far as death of the main characters go, some of the punch is taken away. (Is that a good way to phrase it? I'm not sure...) John's death in IMToD was very meaningful and very real and left a lot of issues, but we were given closure in AHBLII and John ended up getting a 'happy-ish' ending. Sam's death also has ramifications, but the death itself lasted only a little while and I don't know yet what the full consequences will be. And if Dean does die and go to hell, the question won't be if he's coming back, but how and with how much damage.
So you're saying Sam needs to murder someone at the end of each season to save the world. ;)
No! Well, actually, now that you mention it, yes. Only that does make it suddenly very murky, doesn't it. I'm all twisted up and trying to re-think it now. ;)
I don't know, but it should involve wearing black leather. *wags eyebrows*
I'll trade the black leather for a convertible for him to sprawl out in and since Sam is full of demon blood and therefore connected to hell he gets hot easily andmust wear less clothing. *firm nod*
In fact, I want the psychics to be the unseen, hiding "forces of good" and Azazel was going around trying to use them for his own purposes by making them a human/demon blood cocktail
I'd totally love this, especially because I really do want to believe that there is some force of good out there besides a group of ragged, quite often revenge-driven hunters. And taking one of the 'good' ones is certainly one of the most evil acts the YED could commit. Here's hoping your theory is right!!
I wish you guys luck on your project, all of you are certainly better at picking things out than I am. Including symbols & such. I had to cackle with glee when sadelyrate mentioned the symbol of Astaroth in 3.09 because that's originally who Tammi was - at least as long as I'm remembering the sides right.
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Oh, Mara! I liked the fact she jabbed Henriksen (however you spell it ... you know, I write that every time, from now on it's going to be "Henricksonhoweveryouspellit") good and hard. I also liked the detective in "The Usual Suspects". It would be great if they joined forces and cleaned up the boys' criminal records so they could rejoin society at some point (I doubt that would happen, but maybe in ficland).
some of the punch is taken away
Yeah, I see your point. For sure, you start pulling your punches (killing your main characters and then repeatedly resurrecting them) and after a while nobody flinches when you make a fist. But (heh), on the other hand, it's when everyone's habituated to the "fake out" that a real punch knocks everyone flat. Not that I think Dean won't be back for S4 or anything. *knocks on wood*
But I think the big thing no matter who dies or doesn't is to is no to jerk the audience around too much. Once the writer's lose their credibility it's almost impossible to get it back. I think Kripke is hyper aware of this, which is one of the reasons why he surfs the boards and seems interested in fan reactions. Yay for conscientious producer-writer-creator-evil masterminds. :)
a convertible for him to sprawl out in
LOL! That poor boy, he could barely fit into that little car. His knees must have bruises from the dash board. I don't know how he fits into most things ... airplanes especially. My husband is 6'4" and gets leg cramps if he can't sit in an exit aisle.
since Sam is full of demon blood and therefore connected to hell he gets hot easily andmust wear less clothing.
Sweat. There's probably some sweating involved somewhere, too. How about black leather pants and a sweaty ... tank top. Yeah. A white or gray tank top. And maybe to cool off he leans up against a metal fence. Wow. Now if I only had a picture of that...
Here's hoping your theory is right!!
Forces of good (FoG) FTW! *waves FoG flag*
I wish you guys luck on your project
Thank you! :)
because that's originally who Tammi was
Yet another demon with a real demon name! This just really makes me wonder why some demons have demon names and others like Ruby and Lilith have human sounding names. Show, you confuse me! And consequently sometimes I confuse myself as to why I'm thinking about demonology, Hell's hierarchy, and demon names in the first place XD!
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As for early S3 Dean and his weird flippancy and Sam disconnect ... that was disturbing. It's hard for me to watch pre-"Fresh Blood" episodes for that reason. I think that distance was necessary in order to provide some texture to the brother relationship and contrast to the team mentality of SamandDean.
Dean never wanted Sam to know what he did, had Jake and the Demon never given the away his secret - I think he would have tried to do one of two things with Sam.
1)Get Sam back on course for a normal life - A life where Dean could bear to leave him to be safe and not have to worry that he would not have to watch his back - and then quietly disappear - maybe make it so his year came due when he died of natural causes like an audo accident or mugger or anything not supernatural
or
2)Go around being as normal as possible for Sam until he heard the first hell hound and then go off and try to die of natural causes ike an audo accident or mugger or anything not supernatural
But with Sam knowing Dean need to try and still protect his brother. Pretending it didn't bother him was his way of trying to ease the anguish he knew Sam felt. Sort of a don't feel bad Sam I don't attitude. It was also a way for him to hide in his own mind from the enormity of what he did. If he had gotten all emo - it would have made both feel worse and maybe incapacitate both of them emotionally. Plus I bet he never wanted to risk saying to Sam even obliquely or unintentionally - I wish I hadn't done it - because that would be like saying Sam wasn't worth it
Don't know if I made sense
Zaz
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I can see Dean doing either of the scenarios you mention as they're both consistent with Dean's MO of protect Sammy.
Pretending it didn't bother him was his way of trying to ease the anguish he knew Sam felt ... It was also a way for him to hide in his own mind from the enormity of what he did.
Yes, I agree, Dean was in denial. It's really interesing to watch Dean's body language when he's deflecting. When his self-protective shield goes up you can practically see it stretching across his face. He refuses to maintain eye contact, he does this prolonged blink thing (I wrote a meta about Dean's denial/nonverbals in "TM7" and it set the stage for the rest of S3's dynamic; skip to the last part if you're interested: http://bowtrunckle.livejournal.com/22197.html#cutid1). Watching Dean pretend everything was OK was so painful and frustrating. Whenever I saw his denial face manifest I said, "Nooo, not again."
because that would be like saying Sam wasn't worth it
I think that's how Dean would see his comment, but I'm not sure that's how Sam would see it. I'm sure Sam is grateful for Dean's sacrifice, but I sense Sam doesn't sees this as an either/or transaction; whereby IF Dean asserts his will to live and tries to bypass the deal it means Dean's somehow devaluing Sam's life. I feel that Sam, more than anything, is feeling abandoned and betrayed by Dean--who seems to have already given up without a fight (which is so very contrary to who Dean is that it's got to be really disturbing for Sam ... no wonder he went on about wanting his brother back in "Fresh Blood" *pets Sam*).
I think it's curious that it's Sam--who's always been viewed as the more "selfish" (I disagree with that, but that's beyond the point) and "independent" one--who seems to have little regard for the consequences of messing with the deal than anyone else. In light of the RED's words at the end of "Bedtime Stories" (sloppy, needy Dean being a burden to Sam), this is especially interesting. But, then again, those Winchesters have the self-sacrifice gene.
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I don't know if Sam has had the opportunity to think about being grateful or not grateful. Dean's deal is a train rushing down the track and for most of the season Sam is just rushing to try and prevent his brother from being mowed down. Not an easy task when Ruby and the Trickster are providing distractions, Lilith is beginning to hunt them and Dean is being unhelpful because he would rather go "Kill some evil sonofabitches" than spend the time doing research on the deal.
I sense Sam doesn't sees this as an either/or transaction; whereby IF Dean asserts his will to live and tries to bypass the deal it means Dean's somehow devaluing Sam's life. I feel that Sam, more than anything, is feeling abandoned and betrayed by Dean--who seems to have already given up without a fight
Oh I agree and Dean doesn't help either with his comments that almost make it sound like he will be relieved when it is over. Dean M7 "Truth is I'm tired Sam, I don't know its like there's a light at the end of the tunnel" Sam "That's Hellfire Dean" Dean "hmmph Whatever. Your alive, I feel good, for the first time in a long time."
Sam--who's always been viewed as the more "selfish"
I think both boys have their selfish moments- its hard not to and to be human. The deal was inherently selfish and both Sam and Dean know that. But when Sam calls Dean on it in M7 - Dean says he's ok with it - even if Sam isnt.
Sam "Your a hypocrit Dean. How did you feel when Dad sold his soul for you because I was there. I remember, you were twisted and broken and now you go and do the same thing to me. What you did was selfish." Dean "Yeah your right. It was selfish but I'm ok with that." Sam "But I'm not" Dean "Tough, After everything I've done for this family - I think I'm entitled"
Which raises all sorts of questions - about what Dean has and has not done for his family and how much the Demons are lying about how much of a burden Dean is or isn't to his family - that is probably an entire meta in itself
Zaz
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I love the image that elicits. :D
The deal was inherently selfish and both Sam and Dean know that.
I've always thought Dean's deal was inherently selfish and essentially boiled down to an act of weakness borne out of fear, desperation, and impulsiveness. What he did was purely for himself; he wasn't "saving" Sam because Sam was already dead. Sam never had a say in what Dean did to him, and now he's stuck dealing with the consequences (I think this is why early S3 Dean drove me a little crazy).
The whole question about Sam coming back "100% Sam" seems to have been switched to Sam's plot, whereas I really see its emotional consequences being more of a Dean-centric story. Look at all these lose plot threads; let's hope they're not dropped in S4.
Dean "Yeah your right. It was selfish but I'm ok with that." Sam "But I'm not" Dean "Tough, After everything I've done for this family - I think I'm entitled"
I love that Dean is finally asserting a healthy his sense of self this season. It seems like Dean is just a no holds barred kind of guy. When he's self-sacrificing he's 100% self-sacrificing; and when he's into being all about himself, it's 100% all about Dean (even if it's a self-defense mechanism). *still loves Dean*
that is probably an entire meta in itself
*nods* The Show is just an endless supply of "Think"! ;)
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One thing I am really glad of is that Kripke did not go the Buffy route. Sam has no memory of where he was (neither did Dean IMToD either for that matter) So Sam could have been in Limbo or Hell just as easily as Heaven. Or he could have been wandering around a spirit caught in a cursed town, not deserving hell but tainted enough that traveling toward the light was closed to him. Maybe he would have eventually become an angry spirit had Dean not taken action. Based on what YED said IMToD I am not sure he could have pulled Sam Back if he had completely moved on to an upper plane closed to YEDs influence. Unless of course that part of Sammy that YED implied was different couldn't be drawn down from that higher plane.....
In any case it puts Sam in a different position to deal with what is happening around him, lets him focus outward on Dean rather inward on his own loss.
Ooo here's a thought - Dean made the deal when Sam was dead, maybe Sam is the demon that holds the contract on Dean's soul?
All speculation of course, but fun to think about.
Zaz
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This is where fanfic is a wonderful thing. :) I don't think we'll ever know the answer to this question as The Show likes to maintain a nebulous relationship with the "good" spiritual plane, or perhaps it's just me not wanting The Show to reveal all it's cards (I loved the ending of "Roadkill").
Italo Calvino wrote an essay about writing with a light touch. He used the Greek myth of Perseus and Medusa to illustrate if one tries to write directly about "heavy" events (mostly, I think, he was talking about war, being that he was a war vetern, but I also apply this to heavy themes even though I can't remember if he did so or not ... heh, I mangle brilliant ideas!) or events that are too current (i.e. no perspective), there's the risk it'll drag down your work, essentially "freezing" it. He maintains you need to touch on it lightly, quickly, then pull away as to not let the "weight of the world" overwhelm the story.
So I guess this is how I hope The Show will treat heaven or the light or whatever lies beyond because I think if they try to overly define it, the magic will be lost. The mystery is part of the draw for me. That being said, I wouldn't be adverse to getting an incarnation/symbolic "side of good" one of these days, although no angels with white feathers please.
Unless of course that part of Sammy that YED implied was different couldn't be drawn down from that higher plane.....
As much as I love angst/drama, I like to think Sam's spirit moved onto better things because satisfying "endings" are important to me. However, just to go with the flow here, you bring up an interesting idea, one I think is tied to an important theme in The Show: redemption and the personal choice/atoning actions overriding destiny. I get inklings that The Show might go deeper into this idea. This was an under current for the entire S2, but it seems to have gone underground along with emo Sam this season. I guess we'll have to see what happens!
maybe Sam is the demon that holds the contract on Dean's soul?
That's something hugemind and I have been throwing back and forth at each other since "Bedtime Stories". It's definitely a "he" as stated by the RED, so unless the demon possessing Lilith is bisexual, then it can't be the Lilith demon (and I'm still unsure if Lilith is the name of the girl she's occupying or if that's the demon's name). I actually love the idea because it funnels Sam's "destiny" though choice, the fact he'd choose to embrace his demon side to save Dean. Also, how ironic! :D
I'm still not convinced that all demons will choose "evil" nor that Sam's demon "destiny" is bad/dark. I'm rooting for a demon (Lilith) vs. demon (Sam) war with humans and Dean caught in the middle for S4.
Speculating is fun. That's what fandom is for!
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