BSG: Razor

[bop_radar]

I'm friendslocking this, at least until others have seen 'Razor'. This post is as spoilery as you can get. Seriously don't click if you don't want to know. ETA: unlocked now

Comments

[latteaddict]

I can't believe that Lee said 'you ever think you might deserve it?'

shall we add that to Lee's wanting to hold open the airlock for her?

Lee's such a charmer.

My take on Lee ordering Kara to stay behind is completely opposite to yours. To me the most logical person was Mathias. Lee knew Mathias from Galactica and she's a trustworthy officer. Kendra was XO, but Kara is the CAG and the best Viper pilot and one of the last legitimate flight instructors. Kara's value was much higher in pure military terms that Mathias. So personal feelings aside, Lee's choice of using Kara was completely wrong in my opinion. I have written why I think he chose Kara in my write-up which I'll be posting later.

I haven't given the Cain, Kendra arcs that much thought because I didn't really find their stories very compelling. It was just a rehash of what we already knew about Pegasus. The only new thing was that Cain was a Lesbian. Nothing to stop the presses for.

Pilots on the other hand have freaked me out.

[bop_radar]

Sigh.

I was freaked out by Razor but for different reasons to you. I'll respond to your post as well but I'll say one thing here:

Lee knew Mathias from Galactica and she's a trustworthy officer.
There's a big difference between knowing someone's a good officer and knowing they would lay down their life if you asked them to. Lee had to be absolutely certain the person he chose would do that--the ONLY person he trusts that much is Kara. And I think he's right. It takes someone with an extreme degree of willpower and also a fatalistic streak, someone who is willing to accept this is the end of the line for them. I think the fact that Kara was going to do it makes Kara exceptional. Mathias may be trustworthy in all normal circumstances but we have no evidence that she's exceptional.

I see it as a very dark sign of how much Lee trusted and loved Kara that he chose her. It was only his closeness to her that allowed him to know she would do it.

[latteaddict]

There's a big difference between knowing someone's a good officer and knowing they would lay down their life if you asked them to. Lee had to be absolutely certain the person he chose would do that--the ONLY person he trusts that much is Kara. And I think he's right. It takes someone with an extreme degree of willpower and also a fatalistic streak, someone who is willing to accept this is the end of the line for them. I think the fact that Kara was going to do it makes Kara exceptional. Mathias may be trustworthy in all normal circumstances but we have no evidence that she's exceptional.Which way are we dealing with this? Is the argument that Lee's choice was based on emotion and therefore Kara was his emotional choice to choose because, as you said, it's because he knows he can trust her to carry out his orders. Or is it about logical military choices? Because all the disagreements over the season three NC arc have been between how could Lee leave those people (and Kara) to die, versus Lee was making sound military decisions

[bop_radar]

Is the argument that Lee's choice was based on emotion and therefore Kara was his emotional choice to choose because, as you said, it's because he knows he can trust her to carry out his orders. Or is it about logical military choices?
It's a military decision based on all the evidence that Lee has to hand, including his personal assessment of the individuals. The reason for his decision is not emotional.

Kara is far too valuable a military asset to blow her up when wounded people or a marine can accomplish the exact same job
That can in theory, but the question is WILL they? You assume that any military officer would be willing to commit suicide for a superior officer. That's not the case. There's are a reason that kamikaze fighters and suicide bombers are trained separately from other troops--it takes a different psychology to be asked to go to that extreme in the name of service and duty. To wilfully destroy your own life is very different from dying under enemy fire. Can't you see that?

He trusted Kendra with his entire

[brokenmnemonic]

My read on that was that she was ok with it intellectually, but not emotionally. Parallel situation with Kara shooting Lee: Lee knew that it was an accident and was fine with that at a rational level, but emotionally it still hurt.
I also think that this is a perfect example of why the military has fraternization regs. Lee and Kara both know how Lee feels about her. Kara knows that her being there puts Lee in the potential position of having to face ordering her to her death again - and that their connection, their feelings, could impair his judgement. Lee wouldn't order her away, or at least, he wasn't ready to yet - but sooner or later, he would have too, or he'd have to compromise his performance as a Commander - and the human race needs him to be a Commander first and foremost. By transferring back to the Galactica, Kara makes that decision for him - she does the responsible thing both for him, the military, and the human race. She knows it. He knows it as well, which is why he doesn't even pretend to object.

[asta77]

On a personal level, Lee wants to have Kara around. And given how much of an outsider he was on Pegasus and that he was suddenly dealing with responsibility he never expected to deal with (this was a guy on his way to quitting the military before the attacks) I think he wanted an ally and friend on board. But after having to make the call to send Kara to her death (and I'm going to tie this into events in 'Maelstorm' at some point), when she informs him of her decision to transfer back to Galactica he knows, as a commander, it's the right decision for them both. Putting aside he believes he won't have to make that tough call in regards to her again, she was awfully casual with her commanding officer and stepping on the toes of her XO, in part, because of her relationship with Lee. Not that she or Lee or anyone doesn't have precedence for acting this way giving how Adama runs his ships.

[brokenmnemonic]

I think that one of the things Lee loses in Razor is the idea that he can keep himself distant in any way from the military career he's been forced into. With the casualness that's existed between him and Kara (at least when RDM wasn't shovelling the angst on in steaming spadefuls) it's easy to think "hey, I can be CAG and Kara's best friend rolled into one" because the field on which they're staking their lives is one they share, and are much more equal than that which comes into play when Lee takes command of the Pegasus

[bop_radar]

I remember that in Captain's Hand, he was stuck when Garner and Kara were tearing into each other
Yeah, I always loved that insight into how it DID put him in a difficult position and while he did back Garner up I got the feeling like it was hard for him to do it even despite his current anger. If the emotional landscape between them at that time had been slightly different it would have been even harder. But you're right--they've never really seen these issues explored thoroughly.

She knows where she is, and everyone else is used to her, for want of a better expression - they've developed a relationship that works, and Kara has shown that when Adama barks, she will back down - she respects him. I think Lee would have trouble with that on the Pegasus, and I think Kara would have trouble with it as well. I don't know what it would mean for their friendship if she'd stayed aboard.Agreed. On the one hand I think it could have challenged both of them in a positive way, but it could also have put a lot of strain on the friendship. I

[brokenmnemonic]

Yeah, I always loved that insight into how it DID put him in a difficult position and while he did back Garner up I got the feeling like it was hard for him to do it even despite his current anger.At some point, I'm going to have to go over Captains Hand again, because I keep debating back and forth in my head what I think it was that was going through Lee's mind at this point. We know that he was carrying around a lot of anger directed at Kara, but I've always had the feeling that a part of the reason he was looking so troubled in these scenes in TCH is that he felt that Garner's approach/command stance was wrong. From the scene where Garner and Lee are talking in Garner's quarters, and the way Lee seemed very distant and... unengaged, for want of a better word, while Garner was sounding off about how the engineering sections received no respect and how the ship was going to be run, all ties into this feeling that Lee didn't think he was right, but at the same time didn't want to object. I can think of all sorts of reasons why he

[bop_radar]

I also think giving up her identity as a hot-shot viper pilot who would go for the glory even if it meant dying was a big part of it too. ... right through to him wondering if perhaps he wasn't seeing things clearly because of the issues between him and Kara...
That's exactly the sense I got too though I also should do back and revisit--I'm really keen to do that and to see how Razor looks in chronology. Now I just need to find some time to do so...

'd really love to see Kara put in a position where she has to be in charge, and has to make the decision over putting Lee at risk. I know what I think she'd do, but I'm working on supposition - it'd be nice to see it confirmed one way or another, because it'd give me a common framework to draw parallels between them. I think it'd be a fascinating area to explore, because while we know that Kara can be ferociously brave to the point of recklessness with her own life, we've never really had the chance to see her in a position of responsibility over others.Yes, totally! And I've had that

[brokenmnemonic]

Anyway - I'm sure you're right about how it would put a strain on the friendship between Lee and Kara; there's no way it couldn't. It's a little ironic that putting Lee in command put distance between him and Kara, but according to Jamie and some things we've seen on screen, it brought Lee and Adama much closer together, until the wankfest that was S3 started. I'd love to see Kara put in a similar position, because while it'd be a shock and no doubt extremely uncomfortable, I think it'd also give us a canon vehicle to see her getting closer to Lee and Adama again, through experience of being in the hot seat at that level

[bop_radar]

It's a little ironic that putting Lee in command put distance between him and Kara, but according to Jamie and some things we've seen on screen, it brought Lee and Adama much closer together,
That's true... and it also throws up another interesting tension dynamic on the show--Lee and Kara are rarely both in Adama's good graces at the same time, and when one of them's really close the other is on the outer--they're all constantly shifting in relationship to one another in a kind of push-pull way.

it'd also give us a canon vehicle to see her getting closer to Lee and Adama again, through experience of being in the hot seat at that level.
That'd be cool, yeah! *really wants that now*

I love that BSG is making me think about this sort of thing, because I find this conflict between duty, service, responsibility and personal desires to be utterly fascinating and an incredibly rich area to explore - it really is the sort of problem I can get my teeth into and debate overYes totally! I love it too. Soooo many interesting ways to look at

[asta77]

She knows where she is, and everyone else is used to her, for want of a better expression - they've developed a relationship that works, and Kara has shown that when Adama barks, she will back down - she respects him. I think Lee would have trouble with that on the Pegasus, and I think Kara would have trouble with it as well. I don't know what it would mean for their friendship if she'd stayed aboard.

You make a good point here. On Galactica everyone is aware of the Kara/Adama dynamic and what she can and can't get away with. She gets away with more than she should, but there are still some line not to be crossed. I think because of her friendship with Lee (not to mention, frankly, she's less scared of him ;) she would tread far to close to those lines. Lee was already letting her get away with more than he probably should given how new he was to the command of Pegasus. And I could see their relationship influencing others on board. Many may, at best, try to get away with as much as Kara does or, at worst, show no respect for

[brokenmnemonic]

You make a good point here. On Galactica everyone is aware of the Kara/Adama dynamic and what she can and can't get away with. She gets away with more than she should, but there are still some line not to be crossed.I think that's one thing I like about seeing Kara on the Galactica when the scripts are well written - I loved the AOC/YCGHA arc because we saw what looked like the first real disconnect between Adama and Kara, and it started as something personal that affected something professional. equally, it meshed in really well with the interactions Tigh and Kara had in the mini and S1, and a lot of the Adama/Tigh relationship, where they explored ideas like the demands of the job and how far you could wander from that in your personal life before it affected your professional one. I think a lot of the better detail's been lost, and I blame S3 for that - the episodic format was painful to watch at times, and I don't recognise the Adama who tried to talk to Tigh about his drinking in S1, both positively and negatively, in the Adama

[latteaddict]

It's a military decision based on all the evidence that Lee has to hand, including his personal assessment of the individuals. The reason for his decision is not emotional....
Because it was the right military decision. I'm sorry if my comment above confused you into thinking I meant he had an emotional base for his decision.I've been trying to digest this and I honestly can't get my head around Lee targeting Kara when there were other choices (despite the kind and pleasant way brokenmnemonic tried to instruct me that there weren't

[bop_radar]

If it was only Kara on board then the choice would've been taken out of Lee's hands and been more palatable. But it would've been less drama for RDM to play up.
That's true--I definitely think that RDM's love of drama played a part in this. It WAS constructed so that it would be most painful and agonising. However I don't think we're meant to think that Lee made the wrong call. Neither Adama nor Kara criticises him for it.

I realise commenting in the bosom of Lee supporters automatically makes me a target
Well, I'm sorry about that. I feel the same way when I comment in hardcore Kara fans' journals. Sometimes it almost seems like it's pointless, so I really do sympathise. It's not easy to keep a dialogue open when emotions are running so high. If you are feeling attacked let me know--I'm happy to step in, but you can be pretty blunt and critical yourself. Nothing said here is anything near the kind of vitriol I've seen spewed at Lee elsewhere (not by you) already.

Lee making the right military decision sounds well and good but only