Thoughts on Bangel in the context of gender roles and subversion in Buffy shiping

[boot_the_grime]

This recent post by shadowkat about shipping Spuffy and gender reversals in the relationship  shadowkat67.livejournal.com/793238.html linked on Buffyforums by moscow_watcher got me to write a short reply about my views, which are a bit different from hers. I can't do that on her LJ  because she flipped out on me with absolutely no reason and attacked me on her LJ about a

Comments

[rebcake]

I doubt we'll ever agree on the wealth thing. I see Angel presented largely as someone with a trust fund. No visible means of support because well, it's just not an issue, like with so many wealthy scions. He had that rough (rat-eating) patch where he was slumming because he was too fucked-up to pick up his checks, maybe, but he's pretty comfortable. Comfortable enough to buy a freaking hotel in AtS S2. Maybe the drain of the Hyperion is why he had money troubles in AtS S3? [Actually, I'm not convinced the money troubles weren't largely psychological. We know he's cheap, and now he's a dad, and worried about providing. The "business" wasn't making money, but lots of wealthy people don't put their own money (principle) into their businesses. That's a SBO's game.] Obviously, his financial situation changes to suit the needs of the writers.

Where did the money come from? Who knows? I have no problem with the idea that Darla insisted that they invest or acquire property and jewels as part of their nefarious activities. She was a vampire for 400 years and she didn't like to be uncomfortable. He's living off the interest, for all we know.

As for Spike, we do see signs of poverty alongside his not working - dumpster diving being one example. Not to say he might not have hidden assets somewhere, we just never see the slightest sign of it. With Angel, it's everywhere. For the purposes of BtVS, Angel is presented as rich (except that one time) and Spike is presented as poor (except that other, human time).

Agreed that Gunn/Fred, Fred/Wes, and Echo/Paul don't fit the trope, but that's not really pertinent to this discussion. My question is whether you think the pathetic older man/bright young girl element subverts the trope or is part of it? It's hard for me to see one without the other.

[kikimay]

I have no problem with the idea that Darla insisted that they invest or acquire property and jewels as part of their nefarious activities. She was a vampire for 400 years and she didn't like to be uncomfortable. He's living off the interest, for all we know.

I like this assumption. Works for me.
With Spike we really see the financial problems of a neutrered vampire and his poverty, but Angel kinda avoid the problem.

[boot_the_grime]

Angel didn't buy the hotel.

Angel: "Financial advice."
Nabbit blinks: "Okay. Good."
Angel: "We're making this hotel our new base of operations. Right now we're leasing it for six months with an option to buy."
Nabbit: "And how much are you willing to put down?"
Cordy: "'Nothing' - would be good."
Nabbit shrugs: "Oh. That's easy. You could look into seller financing, take over the owner's payments and skip the bank completely, or you could make a play for a preservation grant. Offer to restore the original décor and get the city and the feds to give you a tax break and a loan at a sweetheart rate. Or you could apply for an FHA and get a PMI in lieu of a down payment."
Cordy: "Is anybody else getting warm? Do that 'tax breaks,' FHA and PMI part again."

[samsom]

Comfortable enough to buy a freaking hotel in AtS S2.

During Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been, Angel rids the hotel of Thesulac, the paranoia demon that infested the hotel and caused all the inhabitants to either kill themselves or each other. After that he walks up the stairs and into a suite where Judy, the girl who betrayed him when he tried to help her back in the '50s, has been staying since the '50s, feeding Thesulac. With her was the bag of money she stole (a la Psycho) when she originally ran to the hotel to hide. She died while Angel sat next to her and assured her she was safe.

The bag wasn't much, but it was enough to buy the hotel. In fact, in s3, Gavin specifically threatens to bury Angel in code violations as a way of putting him out of business. If Angel were wealthy, it wouldn't have been an issue but as it was, it was a credible threat on Gavin's part.

Angel had enough for a small apartment in Sunnydale and one in LA, obviously, but that doesn't make him wealthy. Much of s1 of AtS, the first half at least, was about getting paying clients so the business - which was 90% Cordelia's efforts - would stay solid past last Wednesday.

During s6 I used to wonder how Buffy was so broke and yet managed to afford so many stylish clothes to patrol in.

Then I figured it was the needs of TV.