Thoughts on Bangel in the context of gender roles and subversion in Buffy shiping

[boot_the_grime]

This recent post by shadowkat about shipping Spuffy and gender reversals in the relationship  shadowkat67.livejournal.com/793238.html linked on Buffyforums by moscow_watcher got me to write a short reply about my views, which are a bit different from hers. I can't do that on her LJ  because she flipped out on me with absolutely no reason and attacked me on her LJ about a

Comments

[boot_the_grime]

* And of course, the most important part - as the Slayer, Buffy is the one who's supposed to decide if Angel/Spike are to be slayed or spared. This means that, when it comes to social dynamic (putting aside any emotional, sexual and other aspects of the relationship), she's the one in a position of power. Souled Angel on BtVS and chipped/recently souled Spike are outsiders without support from other vampires and without vampire minions that they have when they are soulless/unchipped. It is directly opposite to, say, Rochester/Jane where he's her rich employer and she's poor and without family.

Any feelings on Bangel and Spuffy aside, I can't help but think that those relationships are far more similar than people from both sides of the shipper war would like to admit (the contrasts work exactly because of the similarities). Aside from what I said above, some of the other things mentioned, like Spike's body being exposed and sexualized for the viewer, or Spike being put in damsel position and having to be saved by Buffy, is also exactly what was going on with Angel in seasons 1-3. (He gets a more traditionally masculine role only when he goes to his own show - though his body is still on display a lot.)

The masculine/feminine stereotypes/tropes are very complicated in both those relationships - the "emotional power" that Angel has is mostly in his habit to not be as emotionally open compared to high school Buffy. Angel can be described as manipulative even more than Spike. And isn't Angel's behavior in the B/A relationship - acting mysterious, blowing hot and cold - one of the stereotypical "feminine" behaviors that women are supposedly using to "lure" men and have "power" over them?

[rebcake]

Um, yes?

Though, you're saying that Spike plays the Jane role to Buffy's Rochester as far as friendless, poor, and without family goes - and isn't the original point that their relationship is gender-flipped strengthened by that analogy?

Although I disagree that Angel is presented as being without power, I do see the point that he is presented as needing Buffy in order to have meaning in his life in BtVS S1-3. This would give her power, if she was aware of it, which I doubt she is.

[boot_the_grime]

Though, you're saying that Spike plays the Jane role to Buffy's Rochester as far as friendless, poor, and without family goes - and isn't the original point that their relationship is gender-flipped strengthened by that analogy?

That would also make Buffy/Angel as gender-flipped (since Angel is even more friendless - at least Spike had Clem and occasionally Harmony - and without family and an outcast), so it really doesn't work as an argument in favor of one relationship being gender-flipped and the other not.

I see Buffy/Spike as gender-flipped in some ways, in others not. Same thing with Buffy/Angel, sometimes in different ways.