Thoughts on Bangel in the context of gender roles and subversion in Buffy shiping

[boot_the_grime]

This recent post by shadowkat about shipping Spuffy and gender reversals in the relationship  shadowkat67.livejournal.com/793238.html linked on Buffyforums by moscow_watcher got me to write a short reply about my views, which are a bit different from hers. I can't do that on her LJ  because she flipped out on me with absolutely no reason and attacked me on her LJ about a

Comments

[rebcake]

I don't actually much disagree about Angel, but a few points occurred to me.

1. Angel is not wealthy. Well, he's presented as rich if he's got the objets d'arte and doesn't have to work to support himself. In fact, not working is very much an indicator of wealth unless there are signs of poverty present. At the end of S2 we see the alley-rat-eating version, but the implication for me is that he was too depressed (or whatever) to keep it together at that point. He clearly didn't have to live like that, and has resources he can call on when he gets motivated. (He didn't bring the art with him in steerage on the boat to America, so either he's accumulated it since he immigrated, or he has the resources to keep things in storage for a century. Again, an indicator of wealth.)

2. How Angel managed to make Buffy not notice how pathetic he really was in Sunnydale is really amazing. This is actually pretty common with older man/young girl relationships. The man IS seen as pathetic by his peers, and that's one of the reasons he preys on/is attracted to young girls. He hopes they are not worldly enough to notice his many failings. Joyce notices Angel's, like whoa. I'm not sure where this lands on the subversion scale - is the reality part of the trope or not? I lose track.

[boot_the_grime]

But where does he get that wealth all of the sudden? It doesn't make sense. It's kind of like the theory that Buffy is really rich because she wears designer clothes and has different outfits every time. It's just the Unlimited Wardrobe TV trope. Same thing with Angel: he can't possibly be the owner of that Gothic mansion, which he moved into with Spike and Dru in season 2 after Factory burned down. (The only sense-making explanation is that it's an abandoned mansion; granted, we've been told that real estate is ridiculously cheap in Sunnydale because of the death rates.) Where would he get the money? What does he do? Nothing. Where did he keep all those artefacts while he was eating rats in an alley? Why does he have money troubles in season 3 of AtS? Angel's financial situation on AtS is quite a mystery, but he doesn't appear to be a wealthy benefactor.

In fact, not working is very much an indicator of wealth unless there are signs of poverty present.

Spike didn't work either, and nobody thinks he was rich. But we knew that he had his schemes to get money. What did Angel do? Probably something similar, only we never get to see what Angel's doing when Buffy is not around. (Except for a little hint that he may or may not be stealing blood bags from a hospital, which is left up for us to decide.) It's all contrivance so he could look romantic enough for her. But he's not rich and he's certainly not powerful.

This is actually pretty common with older man/young girl relationships. The man IS seen as pathetic by his peers, and that's one of the reasons he preys on/is attracted to young girls. He hopes they are not worldly enough to notice his many failings.

The quote is:
"The trope is older/experienced guy, powerful, knowledgable, wealthy and a control freak with either a dark secret, a dark past, or an abusive childhood - seduces younger girl, who is less experienced, and not wealthy and who saves him or heals him in some way. It's a partriachial trope for a patriachial world. Examples? Stefan/Elena, Angel/Buffy, Christian Grey/Anatasia, Edward/Bella, Dracula/Mina, Mr. Rochester/Jane Eyre, Cordelia/Angel, Fred/Wesely, Fred/Gunn, Echo/ What'shisname who played Helo (Ballard?) there are others."

This seems to be the description of Rochester/Jane (who are in a employer/employee relationship), Dracula/Mina, Edward/Bella, but Buffy/Angel, only partly - the wealthy and powerful part doesn't match at all. Older, more experienced, dark past, abusive/dysfunctional family dynamic, the woman saves him in some way - Angel fits that description, but so does Spike. The only difference is that Buffy is aware of his failings. Fred/Gunn is one that doesn't fit at all, Gunn is the same age as Fred and certainly not powerful or wealthy, nor more knowledgable; he doesn't 'seduce' her and he isn't particularly 'dark' (as Angelus pointed out), their pasts are just about equally troubled, and it's her issues (the professor she wanted dead) rather than his that drive them apart. Fred/Wesley - Wesley might be a few years older, but I don't see anything else in the description that fits that relationship. Echo/Paul - I don't see how that fits, either. Echo has a darker and more complicated past (as Caroline etc.), Paul isn't more knowledgable or experienced, doesn't seduce her, isn't in a real position of power in the Dollhouse or over Echo even when he's her handler. It seems like a rather arbitrary collection of pairings.

[rebcake]

I doubt we'll ever agree on the wealth thing. I see Angel presented largely as someone with a trust fund. No visible means of support because well, it's just not an issue, like with so many wealthy scions. He had that rough (rat-eating) patch where he was slumming because he was too fucked-up to pick up his checks, maybe, but he's pretty comfortable. Comfortable enough to buy a freaking hotel in AtS S2. Maybe the drain of the Hyperion is why he had money troubles in AtS S3? [Actually, I'm not convinced the money troubles weren't largely psychological. We know he's cheap, and now he's a dad, and worried about providing. The "business" wasn't making money, but lots of wealthy people don't put their own money (principle) into their businesses. That's a SBO's game.] Obviously, his financial situation changes to suit the needs of the writers.

Where did the money come from? Who knows? I have no problem with the idea that Darla insisted that they invest or acquire property and jewels as part of their nefarious activities. She was a vampire for 400 years and she didn't like to be uncomfortable. He's living off the interest, for all we know.

As for Spike, we do see signs of poverty alongside his not working - dumpster diving being one example. Not to say he might not have hidden assets somewhere, we just never see the slightest sign of it. With Angel, it's everywhere. For the purposes of BtVS, Angel is presented as rich (except that one time) and Spike is presented as poor (except that other, human time).

Agreed that Gunn/Fred, Fred/Wes, and Echo/Paul don't fit the trope, but that's not really pertinent to this discussion. My question is whether you think the pathetic older man/bright young girl element subverts the trope or is part of it? It's hard for me to see one without the other.

[kikimay]

I have no problem with the idea that Darla insisted that they invest or acquire property and jewels as part of their nefarious activities. She was a vampire for 400 years and she didn't like to be uncomfortable. He's living off the interest, for all we know.

I like this assumption. Works for me.
With Spike we really see the financial problems of a neutrered vampire and his poverty, but Angel kinda avoid the problem.

[boot_the_grime]

Angel didn't buy the hotel.

Angel: "Financial advice."
Nabbit blinks: "Okay. Good."
Angel: "We're making this hotel our new base of operations. Right now we're leasing it for six months with an option to buy."
Nabbit: "And how much are you willing to put down?"
Cordy: "'Nothing' - would be good."
Nabbit shrugs: "Oh. That's easy. You could look into seller financing, take over the owner's payments and skip the bank completely, or you could make a play for a preservation grant. Offer to restore the original décor and get the city and the feds to give you a tax break and a loan at a sweetheart rate. Or you could apply for an FHA and get a PMI in lieu of a down payment."
Cordy: "Is anybody else getting warm? Do that 'tax breaks,' FHA and PMI part again."

[samsom]

Comfortable enough to buy a freaking hotel in AtS S2.

During Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been, Angel rids the hotel of Thesulac, the paranoia demon that infested the hotel and caused all the inhabitants to either kill themselves or each other. After that he walks up the stairs and into a suite where Judy, the girl who betrayed him when he tried to help her back in the '50s, has been staying since the '50s, feeding Thesulac. With her was the bag of money she stole (a la Psycho) when she originally ran to the hotel to hide. She died while Angel sat next to her and assured her she was safe.

The bag wasn't much, but it was enough to buy the hotel. In fact, in s3, Gavin specifically threatens to bury Angel in code violations as a way of putting him out of business. If Angel were wealthy, it wouldn't have been an issue but as it was, it was a credible threat on Gavin's part.

Angel had enough for a small apartment in Sunnydale and one in LA, obviously, but that doesn't make him wealthy. Much of s1 of AtS, the first half at least, was about getting paying clients so the business - which was 90% Cordelia's efforts - would stay solid past last Wednesday.

During s6 I used to wonder how Buffy was so broke and yet managed to afford so many stylish clothes to patrol in.

Then I figured it was the needs of TV.

[boot_the_grime]

* And of course, the most important part - as the Slayer, Buffy is the one who's supposed to decide if Angel/Spike are to be slayed or spared. This means that, when it comes to social dynamic (putting aside any emotional, sexual and other aspects of the relationship), she's the one in a position of power. Souled Angel on BtVS and chipped/recently souled Spike are outsiders without support from other vampires and without vampire minions that they have when they are soulless/unchipped. It is directly opposite to, say, Rochester/Jane where he's her rich employer and she's poor and without family.

Any feelings on Bangel and Spuffy aside, I can't help but think that those relationships are far more similar than people from both sides of the shipper war would like to admit (the contrasts work exactly because of the similarities). Aside from what I said above, some of the other things mentioned, like Spike's body being exposed and sexualized for the viewer, or Spike being put in damsel position and having to be saved by Buffy, is also exactly what was going on with Angel in seasons 1-3. (He gets a more traditionally masculine role only when he goes to his own show - though his body is still on display a lot.)

The masculine/feminine stereotypes/tropes are very complicated in both those relationships - the "emotional power" that Angel has is mostly in his habit to not be as emotionally open compared to high school Buffy. Angel can be described as manipulative even more than Spike. And isn't Angel's behavior in the B/A relationship - acting mysterious, blowing hot and cold - one of the stereotypical "feminine" behaviors that women are supposedly using to "lure" men and have "power" over them?

[rebcake]

Um, yes?

Though, you're saying that Spike plays the Jane role to Buffy's Rochester as far as friendless, poor, and without family goes - and isn't the original point that their relationship is gender-flipped strengthened by that analogy?

Although I disagree that Angel is presented as being without power, I do see the point that he is presented as needing Buffy in order to have meaning in his life in BtVS S1-3. This would give her power, if she was aware of it, which I doubt she is.

[boot_the_grime]

Though, you're saying that Spike plays the Jane role to Buffy's Rochester as far as friendless, poor, and without family goes - and isn't the original point that their relationship is gender-flipped strengthened by that analogy?

That would also make Buffy/Angel as gender-flipped (since Angel is even more friendless - at least Spike had Clem and occasionally Harmony - and without family and an outcast), so it really doesn't work as an argument in favor of one relationship being gender-flipped and the other not.

I see Buffy/Spike as gender-flipped in some ways, in others not. Same thing with Buffy/Angel, sometimes in different ways.

[beloved_77]

While I don't necessarily think that Angel had actual wealth (money, possessions, etc.), I do think he was presented that way by the writers, as Spike was present as poor. Even though he may not own it, Angel lives in a mansion, a clear symbol of wealth. Spike lives in a crypt with skeletons. Angel's furniture is sparse, but it's clean and new looking. Spike's furniture is old, shabby, and from the local dump. We aren't certain where Angel gets money, but we never see him getting it by nefarious means (on AtS, he's self-employed with a legitimate business). In contrast, we see Spike actively pocketing Xander's cash, hustling poker, and mugging people in alleys. The differences are there for a reason. I'm just not sure what reason that might be. :-P

[boot_the_grime]

That's what I referred to above while talking about Angel's image. They wanted him to fit a certain Gothic romantic figure trope, so he has some of their surface characteristics, like the big mansion he just suddenly obtains in the middle of season 2 and moves in with Spike and Dru. Did he buy it? I doubt it. Did he buy all those artefacts? I doubt it even more.

Then they undercut it all by showing him as a homeless guy eating rats. It's all deliberate, but making sense of Angel's finances is kind of like figuring out the financial status of the Scoobies based on how often we see them in different outfits.

[2maggie2]

ITA about Angel's wealth, and am always surprised when it's not taken as a given. The set design of his places of residence are always laden with fine things...that's not an accident. It's a communication about who he is.

Spike, by contrast lives in a crypt that he dresses up by stealing from dumpsters. I'd add that's almost certainly a choice Spike makes. Vampires can be rich very easily if they want to be. Kill a few diplomats and make a few investments. Compound interest alone means any poor vampire is poor by choice. Angel obviously made the choice to NOT be poor.

[aycheb]

Angel was a lower middle class merchant's son who decided to play the aristocrat. Spike was an upper middle class gentlewoman's son who decided to play the chav. They're both fakers and its not just gender roles that get shared around in BtVS.

From the heroine's point of view, a huge part of the Edward/Bella, Rochester/Jane, Captain von Trapp/Maria type of romance is how the ugly duckling is recognised as a swan. It's a pre-feminist vernon of the old superman story. The specky geek is secretly a powerful superhero; the clumsy plain girl is (unbeknown even to herself) the object of the most desireable's desire. Angel may have commonalities with Edward or Rochester but Buffy simply doesn't work as the Bella or the Jane. Not only does she have her own superhero thing going on (she doesn't need his) but in terms of human social status she's the cheerleading Elsa Schräder not the geeky Maria.

[rebcake]

Two excellent points.