warning- long commentallthatjazmyneMarch 2 2007, 21:01:43 UTC
Are you honorable? Do you honor God the way Jim did? I think if you look at that as two separate questions, you can answer the first while disregarding the second. Are there aspects of your grandfather's life, actions, and values that you can emulate? Does your own personal definition of "honor" apply to you?
As a religious person, I know it would be important to me that my funeral (which I'm not planning for a couple of decades, btw) reflect my beliefs about life, death, and what comes next, and I would just hope that those who don't believe those same things would accept them as part what mattered to me, and part of what made up the total package of Me. I would feel bad if some of those attending my funeral were uncomfortable with the religious elements, but I would still want them there.
In a sort of analogy, consider the story about your grandfather's military activities. There could just as easily have been someone there with very strong feelings about the missile systems he worked on, who might have been disturbed that your grandfather was involved in the development of more weapons, and who might have thought "I wish I could have heard all of the other stories about Jim except this, because I don't like including this thing I'm so uncomfortable with along with all the other things I know and admire about him." And it's still part of who your grandfather was.
I think that we all have family members and friends whose lives, actions, or beliefs include aspects with which we might disagree, or be uncomfortable, or to which we might even strongly object, but we have to balance them against the rest.
I think the most comforting element of a funeral is the gathering of all the people who cared about that person, especially when it's family. I'm glad that you and your cousins could enjoy that part of it, and could have your own "Remembering" with each other.
Right there with you on "Touch of the Master's Hand," though. It's one of those poems/songs where the ending is glaringly obvious from the beginning, and it's a bit of an ordeal waiting for it to get there. No, thank you.
Re: warning- long commentboliverMarch 2 2007, 21:21:26 UTC
I get what you're saying about each person attending the funeral having their own perspective on things, and that makes sense. At the same time, the pastor didn't just talk about what a devout person my grandfather was. That would have been fine- we're there to honor him, and remember him, warts and all. Whatever I believe about missle systems, he worked on them; it just...IS. Not changeable, and thus worthy of our thinking on it. If it were your funeral, or wedding, and the service focused on your beliefs, it's all good- we're there for you.
But for the pastor to put a personal challenge down to us, as if it's from him, I don't get that. If it were directly from the deceased, as in rusty's example of what her mother might want to be said, then that's good, too; it's someone who knows me, asking me if I'm honorable, which seems fair. Maybe the pastor was passing on something from Papa directly, but he just didn't specify that.
But the pastor doesn't know me, and it would be different were I attending a Sunday service of his, where he gets to say whatever. But attending a funeral is voluntary, but isn't at the same time. I would kinda hope that that would make a difference in how he chose to temper his words to be more inclusive of the inevitable family member who isn't on the same spiritaul path as other folk. You know, people like Malcolm Reynolds.
Thanks for your response. It's always refreshing to hear from people I care about and respect, but who see things from a different direction.
Re: warning- long commentastrablueMarch 3 2007, 08:24:18 UTC
As a religious person, I know it would be important to me that my funeral (which I'm not planning for a couple of decades, btw) reflect my beliefs about life, death, and what comes next, and I would just hope that those who don't believe those same things would accept them as part what mattered to me, and part of what made up the total package of Me. I would feel bad if some of those attending my funeral were uncomfortable with the religious elements, but I would still want them there.
I agree with Julia here, with the extra caveat that I still wouldn't want direct proselytizing at my services (wedding or funeral). Catholic Masses aren't generally all "Convert ye or perish!" anyway - it's left up to the person to later go and talk to someone (priest, nun, another parishioner) if they're so moved. Something like "Go forth and love one another/honor your loved ones/take care of the earth," though - I don't think that's objectionable.
I think you described the whole funeral quite vividly, even if it was "cold" to you. Thank you for this post.
I'm kind of glad I don't know the "Touch of the Master's Hand" song - it seems absolutely shudder-inducing.
My day to day life is in my little liberal bubble, rarely interacting with "religious" people
Just a note: people can be liberal and religious. I know plenty of them. (I identify as independent myself, holding views from both camps.)
Re: warning- long commentboliverMarch 3 2007, 23:31:08 UTC
See, that's why I used the quotes around "religious." To me, religious people (no quotes) are genuine, non-judgmental, accepting, independent, spiritual, thinking people who happen to subscribe to specific religious tenets.
"Religious" people, on the other hand, use their "religion" as an excuse to assume that everyone outside of their own bubble are going Straight to Hell. I don't know any "religious" people, but I do know plenty of religious people, including you and jaz.
I should have been more specific, there.
It reminds me of Brother Cavel's delivery of the term God when he uses it in speech in Battlestar Galactica. I love his character.
Your extra caveat in your first sentence is the whole enchilada to me; it's the difference between offensive and wholly acceptable and respectful.
I think if you look at that as two separate questions, you can answer the first while disregarding the second. Are there aspects of your grandfather's life, actions, and values that you can emulate? Does your own personal definition of "honor" apply to you?
As a religious person, I know it would be important to me that my funeral (which I'm not planning for a couple of decades, btw) reflect my beliefs about life, death, and what comes next, and I would just hope that those who don't believe those same things would accept them as part what mattered to me, and part of what made up the total package of Me. I would feel bad if some of those attending my funeral were uncomfortable with the religious elements, but I would still want them there.
In a sort of analogy, consider the story about your grandfather's military activities. There could just as easily have been someone there with very strong feelings about the missile systems he worked on, who might have been disturbed that your grandfather was involved in the development of more weapons, and who might have thought "I wish I could have heard all of the other stories about Jim except this, because I don't like including this thing I'm so uncomfortable with along with all the other things I know and admire about him." And it's still part of who your grandfather was.
I think that we all have family members and friends whose lives, actions, or beliefs include aspects with which we might disagree, or be uncomfortable, or to which we might even strongly object, but we have to balance them against the rest.
I think the most comforting element of a funeral is the gathering of all the people who cared about that person, especially when it's family. I'm glad that you and your cousins could enjoy that part of it, and could have your own "Remembering" with each other.
Right there with you on "Touch of the Master's Hand," though. It's one of those poems/songs where the ending is glaringly obvious from the beginning, and it's a bit of an ordeal waiting for it to get there. No, thank you.
Reply
But for the pastor to put a personal challenge down to us, as if it's from him, I don't get that. If it were directly from the deceased, as in rusty's example of what her mother might want to be said, then that's good, too; it's someone who knows me, asking me if I'm honorable, which seems fair. Maybe the pastor was passing on something from Papa directly, but he just didn't specify that.
But the pastor doesn't know me, and it would be different were I attending a Sunday service of his, where he gets to say whatever. But attending a funeral is voluntary, but isn't at the same time. I would kinda hope that that would make a difference in how he chose to temper his words to be more inclusive of the inevitable family member who isn't on the same spiritaul path as other folk. You know, people like Malcolm Reynolds.
Thanks for your response. It's always refreshing to hear from people I care about and respect, but who see things from a different direction.
Reply
I agree with Julia here, with the extra caveat that I still wouldn't want direct proselytizing at my services (wedding or funeral). Catholic Masses aren't generally all "Convert ye or perish!" anyway - it's left up to the person to later go and talk to someone (priest, nun, another parishioner) if they're so moved. Something like "Go forth and love one another/honor your loved ones/take care of the earth," though - I don't think that's objectionable.
I think you described the whole funeral quite vividly, even if it was "cold" to you. Thank you for this post.
I'm kind of glad I don't know the "Touch of the Master's Hand" song - it seems absolutely shudder-inducing.
My day to day life is in my little liberal bubble, rarely interacting with "religious" people
Just a note: people can be liberal and religious. I know plenty of them. (I identify as independent myself, holding views from both camps.)
Reply
"Religious" people, on the other hand, use their "religion" as an excuse to assume that everyone outside of their own bubble are going Straight to Hell. I don't know any "religious" people, but I do know plenty of religious people, including you and jaz.
I should have been more specific, there.
It reminds me of Brother Cavel's delivery of the term God when he uses it in speech in Battlestar Galactica. I love his character.
Your extra caveat in your first sentence is the whole enchilada to me; it's the difference between offensive and wholly acceptable and respectful.
Reply
Oh, okay. I understand better now. Thank you.
Reply
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