God's judgment, in the Koran, falls upon those who knowingly and willfully do wrong. Arrogance, pride, thinking you know better, these are the big ticket items. I was interested to see that unlike Protestant Christianity where you must “accept Jeezus as yer LOARD an' Saveyer,” the Islamic view says if you repent and truly mean it, if you try your honest best and leave the rest up to God, that's good enough even if you don't get around to praying all five times each day and whatnot.
I look inside at the humility. That broken-open lowliness is the Reality, not the language! Forget phraseology.
Those who pay attention to ways of behaving and speaking are one sort. Lovers who burn are another…
This is actually very comforting to someone like me!
[The Christian Church makes the same distinction between 'liturgical' and 'evangelical' professions of faith, but it's a social-status political distinction with Cathanglican up at one end and snake-handlers down at the other.]
I've been meaning to mention: Doubtless you recall the stage musical, later film Godspell, which I have always preferred to Jesus Christ Superstar because in its own way it seems a bit closer to the original. I find it interesting because while it's the “New Testament,” the principals involved were themselves thoroughly Old Testament monotheists and precursors to Islam.
We plow the fields, and scatter the good seed on the land, But it is fed and watered by God's almighty hand. He sends us snow in winter, the warmth to swell the grain, The breezes and the sunshine, and soft refreshing rain.
All good gifts around us Are sent from Heaven above. So thank the Lord, O, thank the Lord for all his love.
[CHORUS]
We thank thee then, O Father, for all things bright and good, The seedtime and the harvest, our life our health our food, No gifts have we to offer for all thy love imparts, But that which thou desirest, our humble thankful hearts…
No, i was not familiar with "Godspel," heard of it, of colurse but knew nothing about its content.
I really enjoyed and appreciated your take on the Koran. My own reading of English language interpretations of it were so depressing to me that reading it had the opposite of its desired effect. I know no Arabic
سورة آل عمران baron_wasteAugust 26 2015, 17:24:37 UTC
This is one example; the Qur'an repeats itself obsessively, so this point is made elsewhere also:
… And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous
Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good;
And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who can forgive sins except Allah ? - and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know.
Those - their reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens beneath which rivers flow [in Paradise], wherein they will abide eternally; and excellent is the reward of the [righteous] workers.
Similar situations [as yours] have passed on before you, so proceed throughout the earth and observe how was the end of those who denied.
This [Qur'an] is a clear statement to [all] the people and a guidance and instruction for those conscious of Allah .
- Surat 'Āli `Imrān (Family of Imran ) - 3: 133 - 138
=============================================
Arabic requires dedication, and I myself am but a tyro, but the grammar is no more difficult than, say, French. Even the script is basically cursive writing backwards. It's the pronunciation that gives the untrained tongue and ear the collywobbles. [My copy of the Qur'an is older than the Internet, but it hasn't changed, and these passages vary only in wording from what I have.]
I find it fascinating that twice in Western history the language of cutting-edge science and technology, the must-know language if you want to be truly up to speed, was originally the language of feuding tribal Menaces to Civilization™! In post-Roman times the cutting edge of science and technology, of human knowledge of astronomy and anatomy and everything in between, was Arabic - and of course by the 19th century anyone who was anyone in the physical and social sciences and engineering understood German to some degree - the guys who ran through the forests in deerhide or bare chests and, like the Arabs, only stopped killing each other long enough to beat the Romans stupid. There's an irony there and a significance, though I'm not sure what it is.
Re: سورة آل عمران bobby1933August 27 2015, 06:05:41 UTC
My impression from one reading of an English language interpretation of the Koran is that correct behavior follows correct belief. Christians, Jews. and especially "pagans" cammmpt be as reliably ethical as Muslims because they follow perverted interpretations of God's will. Most Muslims, or at least all i know do not act on this. But those who do ... well, they seem easily converted to violent manifestations of Islam. Now Christians were this way once, so the problem may not be so much religious as historical and socio-economic
I agree that the ethic of the Koran is probably closer to the ethic of Jesus than Christianity is, but Jesus did not foresee a political manifestation of his ethic, an enforcement of it by a state. Muhammed is thought to be greater than Jesus because he took on political responsibilities, but i disagree.
Re: سورة آل عمران baron_wasteAugust 27 2015, 06:44:33 UTC
Yah, I wouldn't agree with that either, because he claimed to be only speaking for another - and I have to wonder why that “other” felt that middleman to be necessary. “Dictation” my eye - just hand Muhammad the finished product already written, if you're legit. And this supposedly went on for years - did no one else in all that time ever witness this on-going divine visitation? Is there any corroboration for this bizarre claim? No.
- To which they would rightly reply that there's no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, either; in theory he could have been cooked up among the Apostles, and this would explain the inconsistencies in the various Gospels…
Personally, I find the “Because I say so, that's why” dogmatism in the Qur'an to be annoying. The point is made over and over - and over and over - that God can do absolutely anything He chooses, AND that God created Man, breathed life into him, &c. So why could He not do it again? By their own argument God could create a Jesus if He so chose, and Jesus said He DID so choose, and backed up the claim by performing astounding miracles! Okay, so what's the problem?
No, He didn't create or adopt a Son “because I say so,” Gabriel [supposedly] said. “You can take it from me…” Well, we'd pretty much have to so take it, or leave it, because he offers no evidence to disprove Jesus's stated claim to be “Adam 2.0,” the direct and mission-specific creation of God.
Yet for all that, Isa ibn Maryam is indeed revered as a prophet in Islam, which is more than Christianity can say about Muhammad!
God's judgment, in the Koran, falls upon those who knowingly and willfully do wrong. Arrogance, pride, thinking you know better, these are the big ticket items. I was interested to see that unlike Protestant Christianity where you must “accept Jeezus as yer LOARD an' Saveyer,” the Islamic view says if you repent and truly mean it, if you try your honest best and leave the rest up to God, that's good enough even if you don't get around to praying all five times each day and whatnot.
I look inside at the humility.
That broken-open lowliness is the Reality,
not the language! Forget phraseology.
Those who pay attention to ways of behaving
and speaking are one sort.
Lovers who burn are another…
This is actually very comforting to someone like me!
[The Christian Church makes the same distinction between 'liturgical' and 'evangelical' professions of faith, but it's a social-status political distinction with Cathanglican up at one end and snake-handlers down at the other.]
--------------------------------------------------
I've been meaning to mention: Doubtless you recall the stage musical, later film Godspell, which I have always preferred to Jesus Christ Superstar because in its own way it seems a bit closer to the original. I find it interesting because while it's the “New Testament,” the principals involved were themselves thoroughly Old Testament monotheists and precursors to Islam.
We plow the fields, and scatter the good seed on the land,
But it is fed and watered by God's almighty hand.
He sends us snow in winter, the warmth to swell the grain,
The breezes and the sunshine, and soft refreshing rain.
All good gifts around us
Are sent from Heaven above.
So thank the Lord, O, thank the Lord for all his love.
[CHORUS]
We thank thee then, O Father, for all things bright and good,
The seedtime and the harvest, our life our health our food,
No gifts have we to offer for all thy love imparts,
But that which thou desirest, our humble thankful hearts…
- Godspell, “All Good Gifts”
https://youtu.be/_155n8qPd9A
That fits into the message of the Koran as though written for it.
Reply
I really enjoyed and appreciated your take on the Koran. My own reading of English language interpretations of it were so depressing to me that reading it had the opposite of its desired effect. I know no Arabic
Reply
This is one example; the Qur'an repeats itself obsessively, so this point is made elsewhere also:
… And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous
Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good;
And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who can forgive sins except Allah ? - and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know.
Those - their reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens beneath which rivers flow [in Paradise], wherein they will abide eternally; and excellent is the reward of the [righteous] workers.
Similar situations [as yours] have passed on before you, so proceed throughout the earth and observe how was the end of those who denied.
This [Qur'an] is a clear statement to [all] the people and a guidance and instruction for those conscious of Allah .
- Surat 'Āli `Imrān (Family of Imran ) - 3: 133 - 138
=============================================
Arabic requires dedication, and I myself am but a tyro, but the grammar is no more difficult than, say, French. Even the script is basically cursive writing backwards. It's the pronunciation that gives the untrained tongue and ear the collywobbles. [My copy of the Qur'an is older than the Internet, but it hasn't changed, and these passages vary only in wording from what I have.]
I find it fascinating that twice in Western history the language of cutting-edge science and technology, the must-know language if you want to be truly up to speed, was originally the language of feuding tribal Menaces to Civilization™! In post-Roman times the cutting edge of science and technology, of human knowledge of astronomy and anatomy and everything in between, was Arabic - and of course by the 19th century anyone who was anyone in the physical and social sciences and engineering understood German to some degree - the guys who ran through the forests in deerhide or bare chests and, like the Arabs, only stopped killing each other long enough to beat the Romans stupid. There's an irony there and a significance, though I'm not sure what it is.
Reply
I agree that the ethic of the Koran is probably closer to the ethic of Jesus than Christianity is, but Jesus did not foresee a political manifestation of his ethic, an enforcement of it by a state. Muhammed is thought to be greater than Jesus because he took on political responsibilities, but i disagree.
Reply
Yah, I wouldn't agree with that either, because he claimed to be only speaking for another - and I have to wonder why that “other” felt that middleman to be necessary. “Dictation” my eye - just hand Muhammad the finished product already written, if you're legit. And this supposedly went on for years - did no one else in all that time ever witness this on-going divine visitation? Is there any corroboration for this bizarre claim? No.
- To which they would rightly reply that there's no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, either; in theory he could have been cooked up among the Apostles, and this would explain the inconsistencies in the various Gospels…
Personally, I find the “Because I say so, that's why” dogmatism in the Qur'an to be annoying. The point is made over and over - and over and over - that God can do absolutely anything He chooses, AND that God created Man, breathed life into him, &c. So why could He not do it again? By their own argument God could create a Jesus if He so chose, and Jesus said He DID so choose, and backed up the claim by performing astounding miracles! Okay, so what's the problem?
No, He didn't create or adopt a Son “because I say so,” Gabriel [supposedly] said. “You can take it from me…” Well, we'd pretty much have to so take it, or leave it, because he offers no evidence to disprove Jesus's stated claim to be “Adam 2.0,” the direct and mission-specific creation of God.
Yet for all that, Isa ibn Maryam is indeed revered as a prophet in Islam, which is more than Christianity can say about Muhammad!
Reply
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