nope I dont hate you at all, in fact i love discussing things with you. and I do respect your opinion. First of all I wanted to apologize for whatever was done to turn you off from the church, and I want you to know that what im about to say is me being 100% honest and im aware that you probly wont agree with what im saying. I personly do not see christianity as a religion, and I know that maybe that saying has become somewhere cliche but i really dont. Christianity is believeing that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and having a personal relationship with him, what other religion offers that? and you made your comment about freedom of religion and that thats what our country was based on. our country was also based on christian principles, christian principles that state that marriage should be between a man a woman thats why 100 years ago the thought of gay marriages was obserd, it wasnt even something people took seriously it was too far fetched. Thats why im giving the animal example and the daughter with mother examples, right now those things seem extremely far fetched, but whose to say that in 100 years it wont be legalized? i mean even though we see it as gross and dangerous, in the future people might say that we are discriminating against them and not giving them the right to love. and with your "youve never been in love comment" your probably right, but i used to have a gay friend who thought he was totally in love with his partner. My friend has become a christian and no longer practices being gay, but that doesnt mean he doesnt have a temptation every once and a while, its just something that he daily has to ask God to help him with. I have had discussions with him in the past about when he was a homosexual and asking him if it was something you where born with or what,a nd he said that he has come to the conclusion that no one is gay they are just confused. Satan has all differnt ways to tempt people, Satans biggest goal is to lead us away from God and he will do whatever it takes. as the society becomes more and more accepting with differnt things he needs to think of differnt ways to tempt people. For example, 50 years ago it was unacceptable for sex to be shoen on tv or in the movies, or even for women to show cleavage or stomach, but now you turn on the tv and you see a victorias secret comercial, and its basically porn on your tv, or you go the movies and every one on the screen is naked and having sex, our society has gotten so numb to these things and it just seems normal to us, so satan had to figure out new ways to tempt us, so peopple start to have lustful feelings towards the same sex, and once our society becomes numb to that..who knows whats next?
Yay someone that debates rather than says no your stupid...people like you are far and few between...what turned me off to the church was that my dad is or was a pastor and i saw how the inner workings went on...its an ugly place and unfortunately it wasnt just his church, we went to many churchs and we were even on TBN (the christian tv station if you dont know) quite a few times and i realized they were all run the same...for a place thats bases so much of itself on acceptance they were some of the most judgemental people ive ever met...but dont get me wrong there is a huge difference between me giving up on God and me giving up on church...i have alot of personal issues with god, but i havent given up on him nore do i believe he has on me...I still stick to my point that an animal couldnt give its consent and that inner-breeding causes birth defects, but i understand the point your tryin to make... and your right, the country was made on christian values...but keep in mind the times, they were escaping religious persecution for the first time, no matter how hard they tried to be impartial they had the bible shoved down their throats their whole life...dont you think that just maybe if they could have started a country that truly was free to any beliefs they would have? and your also right that gay marriages were just not thought of back then, but did you know thats because they tortured and killed anyone they suspected of being gay? much like a witch only with mush more gruesom tactics...if you were gay back then would you try to be married? and it was also considered not so long ago disgusting for blacks and whites to marry, was that a bad thing? is that something that should have been taken away? speaking of which, most of the slave owners were christian, does that not prove that christians make mistakes? I also have many gay friends and every single one of them has told me they wouldnt be gay if they could change it...your right, it could just be the devil tempting them, but if the devil had you wrapped that tightly would you be able to escape?
I totally agree with what your saying, in ragards th ethe black and whites statement, Yes i do believe that that was wrong, but God never said inter racial marriage was wrong, He DID say that same sex marriage was wrong, Ive prayed alot about this issue. and your right, if the devil had me sound wound up in it, no i would not be able to escape thats where i believe God comes in, God gives freedom, when God says that marriage is to be between a man a woman i do not belive that he is condeming us, i believe that he is freeing us, and opening us up to a love that we could not ever imagine, i still an a firm believer that God has a woman for every man and a man for every woman. and in regards to the slave owner things being christians, yes i agree that was very wrong of us, christians are not perfect, i myself am willing to say that i am very very far from perfect, and make just as many or maybe even more mistakes as the normal person. I cannot explain everyones mistakes or moral issues and I cannot explain the reasons God does something. ALl i know is that I believe Jesus was God, I belive that he is the way to heaven and therefore I will follow his teachings. I have to admit that I too have had many questions over the years about why God does things the way that he does. God loves our questions, I think that maybe since you do believe in God you should bring up some of your concerns about this issue and ask Him what he thinks about it, I will never have all the answers. thank you so much for respecting my beliefs
Believe it or not ive been asking God these questions everyday for the past 8 years(since my brother ran away) and as much as my life continues to progress so do the attacks on me...I've lost more friends and family in the last 8 years than most do in a lifetime...on one hand i look at it as a test of my faith and on the other hand i look at it as reason to have so many questions and strong feelings against God...but thats an entirely different story... Your right though, he never did say anything about inter racial marriage and he did infact say it was wrong for gay marriage... very good point that i had over looked...and i also agree that love is freeing and amazing...but i have an issue with him personally then, because he loves everyone yet for those who wish they could not be gay and cant stop it why isnt he stepping in and helping them? i know you dont know the answer im just posing the question...if theyre being attacked so consistently by the devil then why doesnt God focus more on them? id be willing to give up so of his focus on me so that he could further help those that need it more...but thats just me... And of course no ones perfect, but what bothers me is that christians make their belief = whats perfect and thats more my point about them making mistakes, what if theyre making a mistake and the standards theyre holding everyone to arent what God originally intended? but this all goes back to my belief that there are errors in the bible...another argument all together... im curious though was you saying that you think jesus was God a mistake? did you mean you think that jesus was God's son? I admire the way you stand up for your beliefs, it takes a strong person to be able to do that and still keep their head about it... you seem like a really cool person...thanks for being worth talking to...
I personly do not see christianity as a religion, and I know that maybe that saying has become somewhere cliche but i really dont. Christianity is believeing that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and having a personal relationship with him, what other religion offers that? and you made your comment about freedom of religion and that thats what our country was based on. our country was also based on christian principles, christian principles that state that marriage should be between a man a woman thats why 100 years ago the thought of gay marriages was obserd, it wasnt even something people took seriously it was too far fetched. -------
By this same logic I could say that Buddhism offers a better understanding of the path to enlightenment, what other religion offers that? Or to pose an extreme juxtaposition, Paganism offers a better understanding of the human place in the physical world through animism and ancestral worship, what other religion offers that? I'm not attacking you or your faith, nor do I follow either of my two stated examples, my perspective has always just been questioning why a certain religion (i.e. Christianity) is superior to the thousands of other religions available? And if we're going factor in the principles this country was founded on, why aren't you defending the original ideas concerning womans suffrage (lack thereof) or racial discrimination? I personally support gay rights, because who am I to say that it's "evil"? The bible may say that it is, but the original text of the bible also said that eating meat was a sin. It has been translated so many times that the original meaning has been obscured to the point where although I was raised in a moderately religious household, after doing some research I no longer desire to claim a specific religion. Despite my lack of a religious foundation, I don't advocate the retarded soft-core-porn mindless bullshit on tv, nor beastiality or incest. I find the comparison to be a weak argument, because being sexually attracted to the same sex is completely different than being sexually attracted to your father. And as far as procreation and "what parts fit", the socialization of American culture defines certain gender-specific "natural roles" for people since the time they're born. That doesn't mean they're right.
very true, but I would like to say first of all that all those things that you said all the other realigiosn offer, I believe that christianity offers all of those things. and as far as christianity being superior, i do not believe we are superior in the regards that we are better than anyone else, but every religion cannot be true, 2 opposit things cannot exist and both be true at the same time. it seems to me that maybe you have based your world view under the principle of "no absolute truth" that whatever works for the person is truth for them, this cannot work, because saying that there is no truth, isnt that a true statement? so you would not even be able to back that up, and as far as the bible being translated so many times, the bible was translated very accuratly, in fact the priests who would copy the bible would count how many words there where in the bible, they would even find the word at the very center of the bible, some would even count the number of letters, when the copy was finished being written if the numbers werent exactly perfect the text would be destroyed, and as far as the not eating meat thing goes, that moral was not lost in translation or disregarded because of the changing of the current times, it was disregarded because when Jesus died on the cross it freed us of alot of the rules written in the old testiment laws, in the old testiment people had to sacrifice animals for thier sins to be forgiven, but when Jesus came to the earth and died on the cross for our sins he was the ultimate sscarifice and therefore the people in the new testimentno longer had to sacrifice animals to cover thier sins, also the no eating meat thing was a practice among the jews and i believe that eating certain animals is still against jewish customs, but i am not Jewish. as far as gay morals go, throughout the bible God tells us that it is an abomination and is not to be practiced, he didnt die on the cross so that his morals he set for us would be erased, he died on the cross so that when we do break his morals we can be forgiven, God is not condemning gay people, he loves them and he wants them to know his beautiful design for a man and a woman, i hope you can respect my beliefes, i do respect yours and understand where you are coming from, i myself have had a difficult time decided where i stand on this issue and I have done alot of research, I want you to know that I am not judging you and I have a feeling that no matter how long we debate this issue niether of us will ever change are minds, im open for discussion and friendly debate but I dont want this to become and argument, Nathaniel asked for opinions and i gave mine just like everyone else i hope i have not offended
I didnt mean to single you out or offend you either, I just enjoy when livejournal turns into a forum for discussing something other than who broke edge at the last party. hah so you sound as though you didn't wish to continue this discussion, and thus we shall agree to disagree. take care, vicki
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By this same logic I could say that Buddhism offers a better understanding of the path to enlightenment, what other religion offers that? Or to pose an extreme juxtaposition, Paganism offers a better understanding of the human place in the physical world through animism and ancestral worship, what other religion offers that? I'm not attacking you or your faith, nor do I follow either of my two stated examples, my perspective has always just been questioning why a certain religion (i.e. Christianity) is superior to the thousands of other religions available? And if we're going factor in the principles this country was founded on, why aren't you defending the original ideas concerning womans suffrage (lack thereof) or racial discrimination?
I personally support gay rights, because who am I to say that it's "evil"? The bible may say that it is, but the original text of the bible also said that eating meat was a sin. It has been translated so many times that the original meaning has been obscured to the point where although I was raised in a moderately religious household, after doing some research I no longer desire to claim a specific religion.
Despite my lack of a religious foundation, I don't advocate the retarded soft-core-porn mindless bullshit on tv, nor beastiality or incest. I find the comparison to be a weak argument, because being sexually attracted to the same sex is completely different than being sexually attracted to your father. And as far as procreation and "what parts fit", the socialization of American culture defines certain gender-specific "natural roles" for people since the time they're born. That doesn't mean they're right.
-victoria
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i hope i have not offended
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so you sound as though you didn't wish to continue this discussion, and thus we shall agree to disagree.
take care,
vicki
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