Yes! Thank you! Yes, and yes, and yes! You're definitely not the only person on my flist to think like this, but it's so nice to see this kind of TW post rather than the whining of people who, as you say, just don't seem to have got it...
Interesting that you're identifying US fans as the majority of whingers - that does tend to bear out from my flist (and links from there) but I was putting that down to an imbalance in TW fans (US vs UK) on my flist rather than anything else... I wonder though (don't shoot me, anyone, I'm just wondering!) if some of the cultural references that were integral to the plot in TW maybe didn't make enough of a leap for the US audience? For example, the whole sacrifice-the-children issue was made minor to me compared to the use-the-league-tables-to-choose-them aspect, because we've had years of that league table/SATs crap now (and the SATs here aren't like US SATs). It wasn't just a convenient plot point to choose 10%, it was a massive social comment, and not knowing the references/emotions involved must have taken alot of CoE's meaning away. And of course the various machinations of government and the media together, which specific experience would mean more to an audience who's been through it themselves - I'm sure not everyone over here was paying attention to that sort of thing over the entertainment value of it all, but for people who did notice, it would have made other things more understandable, perhaps, even subconsciously?
Mind you, there's the same realism in the 10% of children dying for lack of drugs because we let the pharmaceutical companies get away with charging ridiculous amounts. This pinned CoE to the real world, not just the UK, meant that actually it wasn't just there to entertain us, and yet I can count the number of people who've mentioned either issue on one hand compared to what they see as the flawed entertainment values...
As you say, people are more concerned with losing Jack/Ianto (which doesn't have to be lot anyway, that's what fanfic's for!) I absolutely love Jack/Ianto, but that's because Ianto was my favourite character to start with - the others were a bit obvious, a bit in my face, even quiet-Toshiko, whereas we only got glimpses of Ianto in the first few eps, enough to make me wonder why, and then I adored the darkness of Cybergirl and the way Ianto had to deal with that, and would have to deal with everyone afterwards - and the fact that Jack kept him on rather than retconning him. It all went so much deeper than Gwen's "I've got no one to talk to" affair with Owen, etc etc, and so when we got hints of any kind of Jack/Ianto after that, never mind a sexual relationship, I thought it was ace, and I wanted to know more - I was fascinated by the characters together. Same as Bodie/Doyle, in a way - I'm fascinated by how the characters react to each other and the world, by how their relationship manages to deal with everything - or not. I've never been able to do the "slash goggles" thing, taking two pretty boys and just wanting them to have sex, it's more about the story behind it for me, and Jack/Ianto have a brilliant story behind them, I reckon. That said, TW is not all about that story, that story is just a part of TW, and it never pretended to be anything else.
As for the way RTD and JM and so on have been treated - Sometimes the Doctor must look at this planet and turn away in shame . . . - no kidding... I hope they don't let it get them down, and I hope they don't turn away from TW as a result, because alot of people did appreciate CoE for what it was and is and meant. Definitely bravo to them!
As you say, people are more concerned with losing Jack/Ianto (which doesn't have to be lot anyway, that's what fanfic's for!) I absolutely love Jack/Ianto, but that's because Ianto was my favourite character to start with - the others were a bit obvious, a bit in my face, even quiet-Toshiko, whereas we only got glimpses of Ianto in the first few eps, enough to make me wonder why, and then I adored the darkness of Cybergirl and the way Ianto had to deal with that, and would have to deal with everyone afterwards - and the fact that Jack kept him on rather than retconning him. It all went so much deeper than Gwen's "I've got no one to talk to" affair with Owen, etc etc, and so when we got hints of any kind of Jack/Ianto after that, never mind a sexual relationship, I thought it was ace, and I wanted to know more - I was fascinated by the characters together. Same as Bodie/Doyle, in a way - I'm fascinated by how the characters react to each other and the world, by how their relationship manages to deal with everything - or not. I've never been able to do the "slash goggles" thing, taking two pretty boys and just wanting them to have sex, it's more about the story behind it for me, and Jack/Ianto have a brilliant story behind them, I reckon. That said, TW is not all about that story, that story is just a part of TW, and it never pretended to be anything else.
I guess I'm in the minority for not seeing anything in "Janto" beyond a fun, sexual relationship. For me, the beauty of Captain Jack's character is that he is a total slut, and every attractive man, woman or alien he meets is a potential sexual partner. That's the Jack we met in DW, got to know better in TW season 1, and that we continued to see through most of TW season 2. I absolutely loved it when Spike (aka Captain John Hart) showed up, and wish we'd seen a little more of the sexual chemistry between those two guys. It was explosive!
Anyway, I don't want Jack coupled up, and I certainly don't buy into any type of "one true love" nonsense when it comes to him. How cruel would that be, for his fans to wish him billions of years of never again being able to find anyone to love, just because he fell for a human with a limited life span. Just as the Doctor had to learn to live with losing his companions, so does Jack. It's part of who they are.
I don't read any TW fanfic, because I don't need or want to see Jack's character hijacked and turned into something it isn't, and see him coupled up and mushy and silly and gaga over Ianto or anyone else. I suppose the fanfic is divided into the Beautiful Death Fic, with the inherent and inevitable angst of an immortal loving a human who will die, and the Ianto Becomes Immortal fic, with poor Jack tied down to one guy for a gazillion years. Ugh to both!
Out of curiousity, am I the only viewer in the entire watching world who found Ianto's clinginess and neediness in COE to be somewhat annoying and out-of-nowhere? I liked him better when he was as casual about the relationship as Jack. It was obvious from the very beginning of the series that they were shagging, but that it was casual. Ianto was in love with that cyberwoman, and Jack has been drooling over Gwen from day one. I think the only reason RTD ratcheted up the J/I relationship in COE was to maximize the effect Ianto's death had on Jack. Jack didnt just lose an employee, a teammate, a friend and a lover - he also lost all the potential of that relationship. Maybe it would have become something incredible, or maybe it would have stayed where it was, with Jack reluctant to cross over the emotional line that would make them "a couple," but whatever, that chance was gone, as was all the happiness and love that Ianto had to offer to anyone, including Jack. And Jack saw himself as being responsible for that loss, to himself, to Ianto's friends and family, and to the future Ianto would never have. Pretty sad stuff. No need to make it more than it was, because it was enough already IMO.
and I certainly don't buy into any type of "one true love" nonsense when it comes to him. No, I don't either - plus it'd be totally impractical, cos as you say, he's effectively immortal. But I can go with Ianto being the guy that he loves right now - in the same way that he loved Estelle in that "right now". Maybe that's why I'm less shattered by Ianto's death in the overall storyline than the shippers - I'm happy enough to see the overall thousands of thousands of years of life of The Face of Boe, and to know that Ianto can't possibly be with him all that time. To me that's all part of the story. And I can have fanfic to find out more about Jack/Ianto in their own "right now".
I've read some fanfic, and I've not really seen either of the scenarios that you've suggested - though maybe I've just managed to avoid it... *g* I think any fic hyping up the emotions in the way you've described is onto a loser as far as I'm concerned though, so not my kind of soppy thing. (I'd highly recommend Trying to Communicate though, if you've not read it - a brief reference to Jack/Ianto only (sorry, I can't go the way of "Janto" - one plus one does not equal one!) and one of the few fics I've actually ever laughed out loud while reading... *g*)
Out of curiousity, am I the only viewer in the entire watching world who found Ianto's clinginess and neediness in COE to be somewhat annoying and out-of-nowhere? Erm... dunno, but I didn't find it annoying or out of nowhere... *g* You mean in Ianto's death scene, where he's all insecure about Jack remembering him? And the scenes where he's trying to figure out Jack's reaction to the idea of them being "a couple"?
I didn't get that they'd been shagging since the beginning of the series, to me it was only after Cyberwoman, and possibly after Countrycide - maybe it started after They Keep Killing Suzie... I saw flirting to start with, then Jack needing to deal somehow with Ianto after Lisa's death, and that whatever happened off screen grew to be a much lighter relationship in alot of ways. I think there've always been hints that there was a bit more to their relationship than just the fun of sex though - Ianto claiming Jack to dance, at Gwen's wedding, Jack being all awkward about asking Ianto out on the date, Ianto and the coat, when Jack was gone... Not necessarily equal on both sides, not necessarily "true love", but a definite tie between them that's deeper than just physical attraction, and probably somehow from the darkness of what Ianto'd done, and how they had to deal with that.
I thought it was a fair development that Ianto was beginning to be weirded out when people saw them as a couple - because he probably knew Jack wouldn't have been, because their relationship could never be as a normal "couple", and if Ianto wasn't even out to his family then I can imagine him still sort of trying to deal with that sort of thing... And then I can see in the trauma of dying, having lost pretty much everything else, he'd perhaps be a bit clingy at the idea that his life would effectively have been meaningless if Jack forgot him - that he'd not left anything behind of import to the world, that maybe if Jack remembered him it'd mean he had been something more than a "tea boy" who shagged the boss now and then... To me, that was the bit that was sad enough... And of course, he didn't tell Ianto back that he loved him... now there's heartbreak and a huge part of the story, right there...
But then I'm not convinced that Jack's been drooling over Gwen since day one either - I think he thinks he has, perhaps, because that's what he does, and she fascinated him because she was strong enough to cope with TW, and that this sometimes confuses Gwen as well, but I think at the heart of it Gwen knows that Jack would love her in the same way that he loves Ianto, and that's not enough for her. She ultimately wants normal, a Rhys to go home to, security I think she said somewhere, and a family - and for all she wants Torchwood too, she chooses security over any feelings she might have for Jack, or thinks he might have for her. I think Jack is learning that maybe there are different kinds of love too - that he can have a non-sexually based love for Gwen, and that's a good kind of love for them...
Okay, I'm just rambling again now, and this was 300 characters too long for a single comment, so I shall go to bed and leave you in peace for now!
Interesting that you're identifying US fans as the majority of whingers - that does tend to bear out from my flist (and links from there) but I was putting that down to an imbalance in TW fans (US vs UK) on my flist rather than anything else... I wonder though (don't shoot me, anyone, I'm just wondering!) if some of the cultural references that were integral to the plot in TW maybe didn't make enough of a leap for the US audience? For example, the whole sacrifice-the-children issue was made minor to me compared to the use-the-league-tables-to-choose-them aspect, because we've had years of that league table/SATs crap now (and the SATs here aren't like US SATs). It wasn't just a convenient plot point to choose 10%, it was a massive social comment, and not knowing the references/emotions involved must have taken alot of CoE's meaning away. And of course the various machinations of government and the media together, which specific experience would mean more to an audience who's been through it themselves - I'm sure not everyone over here was paying attention to that sort of thing over the entertainment value of it all, but for people who did notice, it would have made other things more understandable, perhaps, even subconsciously?
Mind you, there's the same realism in the 10% of children dying for lack of drugs because we let the pharmaceutical companies get away with charging ridiculous amounts. This pinned CoE to the real world, not just the UK, meant that actually it wasn't just there to entertain us, and yet I can count the number of people who've mentioned either issue on one hand compared to what they see as the flawed entertainment values...
As you say, people are more concerned with losing Jack/Ianto (which doesn't have to be lot anyway, that's what fanfic's for!) I absolutely love Jack/Ianto, but that's because Ianto was my favourite character to start with - the others were a bit obvious, a bit in my face, even quiet-Toshiko, whereas we only got glimpses of Ianto in the first few eps, enough to make me wonder why, and then I adored the darkness of Cybergirl and the way Ianto had to deal with that, and would have to deal with everyone afterwards - and the fact that Jack kept him on rather than retconning him. It all went so much deeper than Gwen's "I've got no one to talk to" affair with Owen, etc etc, and so when we got hints of any kind of Jack/Ianto after that, never mind a sexual relationship, I thought it was ace, and I wanted to know more - I was fascinated by the characters together. Same as Bodie/Doyle, in a way - I'm fascinated by how the characters react to each other and the world, by how their relationship manages to deal with everything - or not. I've never been able to do the "slash goggles" thing, taking two pretty boys and just wanting them to have sex, it's more about the story behind it for me, and Jack/Ianto have a brilliant story behind them, I reckon. That said, TW is not all about that story, that story is just a part of TW, and it never pretended to be anything else.
As for the way RTD and JM and so on have been treated - Sometimes the Doctor must look at this planet and turn away in shame . . . - no kidding... I hope they don't let it get them down, and I hope they don't turn away from TW as a result, because alot of people did appreciate CoE for what it was and is and meant. Definitely bravo to them!
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I guess I'm in the minority for not seeing anything in "Janto" beyond a fun, sexual relationship. For me, the beauty of Captain Jack's character is that he is a total slut, and every attractive man, woman or alien he meets is a potential sexual partner. That's the Jack we met in DW, got to know better in TW season 1, and that we continued to see through most of TW season 2. I absolutely loved it when Spike (aka Captain John Hart) showed up, and wish we'd seen a little more of the sexual chemistry between those two guys. It was explosive!
Anyway, I don't want Jack coupled up, and I certainly don't buy into any type of "one true love" nonsense when it comes to him. How cruel would that be, for his fans to wish him billions of years of never again being able to find anyone to love, just because he fell for a human with a limited life span. Just as the Doctor had to learn to live with losing his companions, so does Jack. It's part of who they are.
I don't read any TW fanfic, because I don't need or want to see Jack's character hijacked and turned into something it isn't, and see him coupled up and mushy and silly and gaga over Ianto or anyone else. I suppose the fanfic is divided into the Beautiful Death Fic, with the inherent and inevitable angst of an immortal loving a human who will die, and the Ianto Becomes Immortal fic, with poor Jack tied down to one guy for a gazillion years. Ugh to both!
Out of curiousity, am I the only viewer in the entire watching world who found Ianto's clinginess and neediness in COE to be somewhat annoying and out-of-nowhere? I liked him better when he was as casual about the relationship as Jack. It was obvious from the very beginning of the series that they were shagging, but that it was casual. Ianto was in love with that cyberwoman, and Jack has been drooling over Gwen from day one. I think the only reason RTD ratcheted up the J/I relationship in COE was to maximize the effect Ianto's death had on Jack. Jack didnt just lose an employee, a teammate, a friend and a lover - he also lost all the potential of that relationship. Maybe it would have become something incredible, or maybe it would have stayed where it was, with Jack reluctant to cross over the emotional line that would make them "a couple," but whatever, that chance was gone, as was all the happiness and love that Ianto had to offer to anyone, including Jack. And Jack saw himself as being responsible for that loss, to himself, to Ianto's friends and family, and to the future Ianto would never have. Pretty sad stuff. No need to make it more than it was, because it was enough already IMO.
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and I certainly don't buy into any type of "one true love" nonsense when it comes to him.
No, I don't either - plus it'd be totally impractical, cos as you say, he's effectively immortal. But I can go with Ianto being the guy that he loves right now - in the same way that he loved Estelle in that "right now". Maybe that's why I'm less shattered by Ianto's death in the overall storyline than the shippers - I'm happy enough to see the overall thousands of thousands of years of life of The Face of Boe, and to know that Ianto can't possibly be with him all that time. To me that's all part of the story. And I can have fanfic to find out more about Jack/Ianto in their own "right now".
I've read some fanfic, and I've not really seen either of the scenarios that you've suggested - though maybe I've just managed to avoid it... *g* I think any fic hyping up the emotions in the way you've described is onto a loser as far as I'm concerned though, so not my kind of soppy thing. (I'd highly recommend Trying to Communicate though, if you've not read it - a brief reference to Jack/Ianto only (sorry, I can't go the way of "Janto" - one plus one does not equal one!) and one of the few fics I've actually ever laughed out loud while reading... *g*)
Out of curiousity, am I the only viewer in the entire watching world who found Ianto's clinginess and neediness in COE to be somewhat annoying and out-of-nowhere?
Erm... dunno, but I didn't find it annoying or out of nowhere... *g* You mean in Ianto's death scene, where he's all insecure about Jack remembering him? And the scenes where he's trying to figure out Jack's reaction to the idea of them being "a couple"?
I didn't get that they'd been shagging since the beginning of the series, to me it was only after Cyberwoman, and possibly after Countrycide - maybe it started after They Keep Killing Suzie... I saw flirting to start with, then Jack needing to deal somehow with Ianto after Lisa's death, and that whatever happened off screen grew to be a much lighter relationship in alot of ways. I think there've always been hints that there was a bit more to their relationship than just the fun of sex though - Ianto claiming Jack to dance, at Gwen's wedding, Jack being all awkward about asking Ianto out on the date, Ianto and the coat, when Jack was gone... Not necessarily equal on both sides, not necessarily "true love", but a definite tie between them that's deeper than just physical attraction, and probably somehow from the darkness of what Ianto'd done, and how they had to deal with that.
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But then I'm not convinced that Jack's been drooling over Gwen since day one either - I think he thinks he has, perhaps, because that's what he does, and she fascinated him because she was strong enough to cope with TW, and that this sometimes confuses Gwen as well, but I think at the heart of it Gwen knows that Jack would love her in the same way that he loves Ianto, and that's not enough for her. She ultimately wants normal, a Rhys to go home to, security I think she said somewhere, and a family - and for all she wants Torchwood too, she chooses security over any feelings she might have for Jack, or thinks he might have for her. I think Jack is learning that maybe there are different kinds of love too - that he can have a non-sexually based love for Gwen, and that's a good kind of love for them...
Okay, I'm just rambling again now, and this was 300 characters too long for a single comment, so I shall go to bed and leave you in peace for now!
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