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fannishliss February 28 2009, 13:51:24 UTC
it is so cool that we are at a point in the overall story arc where we can begin to see all these themes really arching over everything.

I'm kind of sorry SmartPop already published their book -- it would have been a better book if we had all known the show would get five seasons! Like the intro said, many of the essays are already jossed!

I'm really intrigued by this Jericho curse you've been exploring. But in a related vein this:

the trickster told Sam that the winchesters keep sacrificing themselves for each other and how it always ends in tears. I think s4 is the season where Sam is essentially sacrificing everything for Dean -- to keep Dean safe, and alive, Sam made himself into the Better Hunter Than Dean -- and he totally doesn't see how it WILL all end in tears.

so not only saving people hunting things the family business, but also the big shell game of constantly plotting to sacrifice themselves for one another -- first Deanna is killed trying to save Dean, then Samuel is killed during his possession (not a willing sacrifice), then John is killed as a tool and then Mary sacrifices her future (not thinking it will be her son) for John -- then Sam's innocence is corrupted and Mary is killed, then John gives up his normal way of life for revenge, then Dean devotes his whole life to John's mission, then Sam joins in that mission after Jess is killed, then John sacrifices himself to save Dean, then Sam sacrifices himself to thwart the demon (but fails to thwart it); then Dean sacrifices himself to save Sam; then Sam's initial sacrificial offer to the CRD is rejected, but Hell says they are all right where it wants them.... then Dean comes back, theoretically redeemed -- will he be able to sacrifice himself anymore or is he used up? Sam's big sacrifice is up next -- then what will Dean do? there are no more big sacrifices for him to make-- are there? Does Dean's redemption, after his complete and utter self-sacrifice, break the cycle? There are no more Winchesters left!

To put it another way, how close to the complete fulfillment of the arc are we? If Jericho (the ungodly city) has been rebuilt on the deaths of the two sons, then what? It seems like the foundation of Jericho is kind of like setting the stage for Armageddon..... that seems likely right?

so then if the whole story plays out with all possible parallels, Sam will have to utterly sacrifice himself TO HELL the way Dean did, before he can be redeemed .... but who will redeem him? because the angels don't like him at all.

I think it will come down to Dean -- now having made all possible sacrifices -- breaking the cycle by refusing to bring the blade down on Sam --- probably at the very end. Yup! Because SO STAR WARS ENDING.

saving people, haunted by things

sorry, had to repost because I thought I saw a typo. If there is some confusion between samndean, who can blame me!

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blacklid March 3 2009, 01:39:23 UTC
Holy cow, yes. Very good thinky thoughts. I'm still absorbing this four days later.

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fannishliss March 3 2009, 08:41:52 UTC
I know! I am so torn about s5! it's super exciting, but so scary to think what is now sure to come..... eep!

For so long I've been trying to puzzle out the woman in white--

Sam: but I'm not unfaithful!
woman/Yoda: You will be!!!!

It's such an ominous portentous statement, tho it certainly was meant to apply to the sexual temptation immediately at hand, it also seemed so HEAVY in terms of Sam's overall faithfulness. So it really does seem like Jericho is not just the UnGodly city, but the city of Unfaithfulness. --- That's what I've been trying to piece together, since self-sacrifice is usually seen as a noble virtue. Even tho I am a DEANGIRL, is it wrong to kind of hazard, that Sam's unfaithfulness was not to Jess (sexually) but to Dean -- that Sam left Dean to return for his internship interview -- I personally don't blame him, but if you do look at it, Jess's death only serves to propel Sam back into life as a Hunter-- Azazel couldn't have thought any differently. So in a weird way, Sam's UnFaithfulness to Dean (understandably wanting his own life with Jess) is the Foundation of his life back with Dean. Therefore, his whole life with Dean is based not on Faithfulness to Dean, but Unfaithfulness--unwillingly, he is dragged back into the life and decides to pursue revenge. To put it another way, Dean explains that it's about saving people, hunting things -- but for Sam it's the Family Business --revenge and the cycle of self-sacrifice. Then that does bring the whole storyarc into crystal focus. Because when has Dean ever been UnFaithful to Sam? clearly, WHEN HE SOLD HIS SOUL and tore Sam back into the game. Oh holy crap. I've been trying to get the handle on exactly why Dean's self-sacrifice (as a supposed virtue) is so bad, since the end of s2!

cheers!!

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fannishliss March 3 2009, 08:58:11 UTC
oh crap, crap CRAP!

BECAUSE THAT MEANS the only way for them to tear down the city -- is to split up. RIGHT?!

A FULL ON PARTING OF THE WAYS.

I know everyone has been saying they need to split up in order to come back together clean, but I didn't want to admit it.

But s4 FORCES US TO ADMIT:

--Sam only came back to Dean for revenge, not for love.

--and Dean, by bringing Sam back, ultimately betrayed him -- the consequences of which define s4.

oh 4.14!!! how cruelly you pull the blinders from our eyes!!!!!

And as blackcat said above, Wishful Thinking does reveal "what Dean doesn't know about that boy" -- the fact that Sam has thrown over everything that he once stood for-- the apple pie life that Dean not so secretly longs for and believes in -- for REVENGE. Sam is Already darkside and doesn't even know it.

John seemed so cruel to tell Sam, "if you go stay gone." It seemed like the worst thing a parent could ever say to a child. Could he have guessed how the Demon would use murder to drive Sammy into the revenge business, if ever the family came back into contact?

It is the sound of Fangirl weeping for her boys, and she will not be consoled -- at least until s5 plays out!

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