(Untitled)

[blackiris17]

So the story goes something like this. Once upon a time a girl decided she needed to change her life. She gathered up some willpower and affected a 180 on her life. It was excruciating but she did it. At the end of a 5 month period the girl discovers that instead of a happy light at the end of the tunnel there was a dark ominous mountain. The

Comments

Re: Perspectives...indeed

[anonymous]

Those are quite the assumptions you are making about me. I did ask you to contact me directly, but if you wish to talk like this I suppose we can. I am not willfully ignorant of anything. I have studied Christianity historically, psychologically, archaeologically and, actually. I have done all those things and in addition have done cross cultural and religious studies in a compare and contrast form. In short, I have, am, and will continue to study Jesus Christ, the Bible, and anything relating to thereof for the rest of my life. Now, I've been doing this for about 2 years now as that's how long I've been a Christian. I never had blind faith or faith like a child. I had to research it to come to my conclusions. So, in effect, your scrutinizing me for what you think I have or have not done is not valid. Further, your casting my beloved religion in an unfavorable light doesn't do anything to me except opens a window to say 'hey, let's talk'. I think it's cool that at one point you wanted to join the clergy and I am curious as what you mean by your 'intellect matured'. Are you implying that intelligent people can't or shouldn't be Christians? Or are you implying that as you grew up you thought you saw something that turned you away from Jesus? What do you say is absurd about the Christian belief system? How do you know it intimately from the inside and outside? I know Christianity the same as you say it too but have come to different conclusions. I am not unfamiliar with the concept of two people doing the same thing and walking away with different thoughts. I am, however, just curious as to how your decisions were reached. Well as before, my contact information is on the thread above. Oh and my name is Sean not Sea...haha...typo on my part. Well cya. B-)

Re: Corruption

[oneiromancer666]

Our very culture bears within it a spiritual void. (This void was born when we separated ourselves from the natural world.) Religions such as Christianity serve in part as an attempt to fill that spiritual void. The first major problem with Christianity is that it was based on a Semitic god of war (Yahweh). The second major problem with Christianity is that it was further perverted and used as a tool by unscrupulous men to control the masses [in medieval times especially]. As such, it is memetically corrupt. You believe in Christianity not because it makes any real sense, but simply because it fills your spiritual void.

Re: Corruption...as with all things...

[anonymous]

Hey there. Sorry for the delay. The thing that caught my attention the most is your argument that Yahweh was a Semitic god of war. Where are you getting that from? There is no evidence to suggest Yahweh was a god of war. Yahweh has always been associated with the Hebrew people since the time Babylon. If you were to break down the word Yahweh, there are some references to 'destoyer' or 'lightening' in the root words but that's it. Now another name that God has been called is El. That word has been used throughout that region for centuries and generally means 'God' or 'one god'. Were you thinking of that? Well please let me know. In regard to you other statements, you say we all have a spiritual void in our lives as caused by the seperation of ourselves from the natural. Why do you say that? How do you know that is true or why do you believe it? Isn't odd to you that most religions have the same purpose in their being to fill something? COuldn't be just that you are being decieved? I hope that wasn't too forward and if it was I apologize but please think about it. Also, I do confess that their were some troubling times with the Church in medieval times or 'the dark ages'. However, it isn't right to associate that with modern Christianity or infant Christianity for that matter. There are plenty of people today who claim to be Christians but are really not. For a multiple of reasons I'm sure...probably mostly social. It isn't right to lump a few bad apples as it were with what Jesus taught and did. To fully understand you have to go to the source and really explore it for yourself. Ask God to open your mind and heart to really understand. If you really want to then do it, if not then don't. For me, Christianity doesn not fill my spiritual void...if anything would persay it wopuld Zen Buddhisim. I just know that following Christ is true and that's why I'm a CHristian. So, if I may ask, what currently 'fills your spiritual void'?

P.S. Sorry for all the questions in this thing. If you can address them all, cool. If not, that's alright too. Thanks for having a conversation though and not being too offensive or rude like most people I try to have an intelligent conversation with. B-)

Re: Anthropology

[oneiromancer666]

You will have to forgive my somewhat imprecise use of the name Yahweh. Yahweh is simply what I chose as the most recognized name for the god that is worshiped by Judeo-Christian religions. I was operating on the idea that Yahweh = El = Eloah = Jehovah, and any other name that a Hebrew, Christian, or Jew might choose to refer to their deity.
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The Old Testament has multiple examples of the Hebrews waging war on their neighbors, and claiming that their god told them to wage war on the sinful heathens, or claiming that their god assisted them in war, or at a minimum praying to their god for success in war. Anthropologically, we classify such a deity as a god of war, for the same reasons that we classify Ashur, Huitzilopochtli, Indra, Mars, Odin, and others as gods of war. In the Old Testament, Yahweh/El is a god of war. The Hebrews are a subgroup of Semites. Yahweh then is a Semitic god of war.
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When Jesus spoke of love as the highest commandment, he was certainly deviating from the warlike religion of the warring Hebrew tribes of the Old Testament. (Deviants tend to be "crucified" by warlike people.) Much of the Old Testament is memetic detritus that was not successfully purged by the followers of Jesus' commandment of love; as such the memetic detritus of the Old Testament pollutes the Christian religion.
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Then comes the rise of the medieval Church. They ruthlessly employed the concept of sin and the guilt it creates to subdue and control a fearful and primarily uneducated populace. The hierarchs of the Church exacted monetary tithes from the fearful and gullible populace, even going so far as to torture and murder "heretics" and "witchs", and the hierarchs lived luxuriously as kings. (I suspect that the hierarchs of the medieval Church were really just deceptive, opportunistic atheists, as are many televangelists today.) Christianity today is still heavily polluted by the concept of sin as designed by the medieval Church.
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The memetic detritus of the warlike Hebrews and the greedy medieval Church hierarchs certainly distracts from Jesus' proclamation that love is the highest commandment.
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What "fills my spiritual void"? A better question would be: How do I embrace my spirit/soul? I revel in the beauty of existence in all its forms, from the laughter of my friends, to the exquisite elegance of a fractal, to the joy of contemplating mysteries, to the creations of my imagination, to the wonders of nature, etc.
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Sean, do you believe that the Earth belongs to humans, or that humans belong to the Earth?

Re: Anthropology

[anonymous]

I can't believe you just asked that question. Not more that 2 weeks ago I bought a bumper sticker that says "The earth does not belong to us, we belong to the earth" Chief Seattle. I love you guys.

Re: Seattle

[oneiromancer666]

I would say that I love you too, but since you are Anonymous I can only say that I love you in that connected-to-humanity sort of way.

Re: Anthropology...memetic detritus in and of itself

[anonymous]

Hey. Sorry it took so long. Busy. You know I actually had to look up memetic detritus. I had never heard of it before. I couldn't find any information on it at first either because I thought it was a two-word word or possibly Latin. B-) Naturally, I broke it up and realized what it means. Um...I don't know if you were using the term correctly or not. It basically means the wearing away of religious trends/cultures or evolution of such things. I think you might of had it in reverse because it doesn't make sense...to me of course. But I get what you were trying to say...I think. You were saying that the Old Testaments' views on life are still prevalent today, right? I'll pause here because I found the word Meme was coined by Richard Dawkins and since I believe the man, while highly intelligent, puts his faith (yes, faith) in a (more or less) easily disprovable belief system (atheism {to a lesser extent evolution}) and slams others who believe opposite (complete hypocrisy while preaching unity) you'll forgive me if I don't take it seriously.

I see how you use paragraphs so I'm going to try too but please forgive me if I mess up sometimes...never did so well with them. B-)

Now then, I do forgive you for the use of Yahweh, of course. B-) A few things about biblical and world history need to be said. While it is true that Hebrews are a 'part' of the semitic world, it's worth noting that Semites are part of Gods' chosen people anyways. Descended from the sons of of Noah...uh Shem, I believe. So their 'god' has always been the same. Not the Semite peoples as a whole since diversion arose...but you know. Now to call the Hebrew people a war society and God a semitic god of war ignores quite a bit. It ignores all the good that God does in the Bible (even just the Old Testament if you wish), His explanations for why He does them (not all but some), the love and faith of His people with the same ignorance and back sliding they ALWAYS do, and the forgiveness of that over and over. Clearly, this is a Biblical which I believe to be true (I can back it up if you want to know one day) however you do not. So for a purely anthropological answer...if you classify any culture that goes to war several times as a war cultural...then most of histories' cultures share the same status. All of the Middle East, the Spartans, Romans, Egyptians, Mesopotamians...shoot...France, England, all of the UK for that matter and Eastern Europe, South America, and USA (haha...which to an extent I would agree anyways). See the point I am making?

By saying Jesus spoke of love deviated of the Old Testament shows me you haven't read the Bible or haven't researched as throughly as you come off. I mean goodness...Jesus spoke of love, yes...but He also spoke of Hell (as much as love actually), salvation, money, Gods' judgment, etc. Oh man...read the sermon on the mount. I don't know why so many people think Jesus was just this peace loving 'hippie' who ONLY spoke of love. You have no idea how much that aspirates me. No offense to you personally...a lot of people are like that. People want to believe a false God, something that gives them permission to live their lives however they want with no restraints. Saying all you need is love, while true to an extent, is ignoring most of what Jesus said including the praise BEFORE the love verse: "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength." -paraphrase Mark 12:29-30

What's your name? I want to know because I have a question for you and, like you, I want to ask you by name. What do you think the above verse means? Why do you think Jesus said it given the context of Scripture?

In response to your question, I believe the Earth belongs to us. God created for us to use and live off of. I think it's disgusting how so many people treat it. Pollute it, ignore it, kill it for their own selfish purposes. It's really not cool. It may surprise you know that I am a green Christian (most good Christians are)...also a liberal...to some limits anyways. Not a conservative on a lot of issues...more liberal. I can only assume you are a liberal as well? This has been a long one, huh? How were my paragraphs? Well cya. B-)

Re: Memetics

[oneiromancer666]

Memetics is the study of the dynamics of ideas("memes") among the collective of all human minds. The word memetic then is an adjective which denotes that the modified noun relates to ideas. The word detritus is synonymous with debris and garbage. Memetic detritus essentially means "garbage ideas". I was saying that the warlike cultural memes from the Old Testament are garbage ideas that should be discarded. You observe that the Romans, Mesopotamians, England, the USA, and others would be classified as warlike cultures, and you are correct. The warlike memes do indeed infect all of the modern cultures to a varying degree.
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I have actually researched the Bible quite extensively. (Recall that at one point I had decided to enter the clergy.) My study of the Bible was actually part of why I ended up purging myself of the Christian memes; an intuitive part of me knew that there was something very wrong with the bloodshed done supposedly according to the will of "God" as described in the Old Testament, and that was the seed of unrest. Quite honestly, I focus on Jesus' commandment of love because it is one of the only ideas of value that I find within the entire Christian religion. I prefer to focus on and nourish what is good, and encourage it to grow. To not focus on the good only invites conflict.
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To answer your question, my name is Damion. Damion Sean Lord.
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I knew that you believed that the Earth belongs to us. That very notion of possession is the meme which infects modern culture and which has fueled the wars throughout the ages. Possession is the root meme which fueled the genocide of the Native American peoples, as well as similar atrocities throughout history. The Native Americans referred to our bloodthirsty possessiveness as "White Man's Disease". Once upon a time humanity believed that it belonged to the Earth, and this connection nourished our souls. Then in Mesopotamia they decided to embark on an ideological experiment; they decided that instead of belonging to the Earth, that the Earth belonged to us. They began spreading this cultural infection of possessiveness by waging war on their neighbors, and the spread of this infection has left a trail of blood throughout our timeline which includes the spread of the Roman empire, the British empire, the genocide of the Native American peoples, and the current practices of the American economic empire. When we decided that we no longer belonged to the world around us we isolated ourselves from the world and each other, and this isolation fails to nourish our souls. This void of separation is why we are constantly seeking something larger than ourselves to feel connected to; religions attempt to provide this.

Re: Commentaries and such

[anonymous]

Damion. Do you have any idea how shocked I was to find out it was you I was speaking to and not somebody else? Very. But it's cool though. How has life been? You do remember who I am and how we had that discussion of the Knights Templar and believing in Jesus vs. just believing what He said? Anyways, don't take this the wrong but I want to be honest with you. I haven't written in so long because I was a little disappointed in you. Did you even read what I said about my views on the Earth and us? I was taken aback by what you wrote. I figured you were asking me a loaded question as, by your own admission, you knew what I was going to say. However, I thought my answer would have surprised you since I do not posses this 'possession meme' as you like to it. Yes, God gave all of us the Earth. Yes, it was given to us to nourish and take care of. And yes, I agree with you about the horrors of "White Man's Disease." Be it white or not, mans attempt at controlling everything is a sin. And therein lies what sin itself is. Sin is a perversion of good. It means to miss the mark. The world does, in fact, belong to us. We have a responsibility to it and each other. However, when it becomes perverted with sin then people take the aspect of 'belongs to us' and turn it into 'belongs to me'. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm being condescending to you but I believe it really is this simple. Does it not align with your views of Earth? Is it honestly so hard to believe that God really wants us to take care of His creation and not to destroy it as so many people have and are doing? What do you think about that?

On the topic of God, if you doubt the Old Testament as being of God, then why do you believe anything Jesus says? You should know that His Scriptures were the Old Testament itself, the Tanak. He believed them to be true. Therefore, it would stand to reason that if Jesus preaches love from the aspect of God, taken from the Bible itself, then Jesus believed that God was love and not blood thirsty. Further, I am happy that you want to nourish love. That's awesome and, in fact, something we all should do anyways. However, you can't pick and choose what you believe in Jesus. It's all or nothing. You know that God is love. Very good. However, you also know that God is justice, fairness, and holiness. These characteristics intertwine perfectly. To some, the aspect of love and justice does not compute. "How can a loving god to this or that, etc.?" I'm not going to sit here and tell you I know the mind of God. I just don't. The aspects of God that I do not know I take on faith that He is God and I am not. But I can say this: whatever 'evils' you may think God did/does/will do I can tell you that they are not evil and are justified according to His will and holiness. Remind me to tell you about the judge/court analogy in relation to Gos as justice and love. I struggle with some of the things in the Old Testament a lot but just because I don't have all the answers doesn't mean I'm going to throw God away altogether. Think of it, if you truly knew everything about God, what's the point of faith? Of hope? Of love with God? Wouldn't you be God if you knew everything? Isn't that what the devil wants to fool us with everyday? That we can be as He is if we but deny Him? I hope this makes sense to you and you understand the terminology as you were interested in clergy. If Jesus interests you then take a good, honest look at His ministry and what He did and said. Compare it to the Old Testament. It's the same God. I hope you'll forgive me for not commentating on memes. I just don't see the relevance at this time. I understand now what they are and how you use them. I guess I don't agree. I mean I could argue that everything in society is a meme. They really, in definition, aren't truth but merely perceptions of reality. Can't really do much with that. Besides, I think they are (in the case of war at least) blaming 'religion' (in this case Christianity) with how people really are (in my opinion, as a result of sin).

Well...cool to know who I'm talking with. Hope all else is cool. So what do you do anyway? School, work, hobby, etc?

Re: Stewardship

[oneiromancer666]

A person without the possession meme, who instead believes that they belong to the Earth, will act reverently towards the Earth. The unchecked possession meme has led humans to commit genocide upon indigenous populations and to neglectfully mistreat the Earth. You however nobly pair your possession meme with a stewardship meme, wherein you specifically believe that we have a responsibility to be stewards of the Earth. After you stated that you believed that the Earth belongs to us yet you find how humans mistreat the Earth to be disgusting, I was no longer accusing you of being an agent of the destructive form of the possession meme, but was instead merely trying to show you how the idea of possession is destructive when it is not contained by the idea of stewardship.

Re: Stewardship

[anonymous]

While I don't really agree that a 'meme' exists (insofar as you define it) but it really is something you dubbed to mean human attributes or characteristics (understandably learned or taught to some extent), I thank you for clearing that up. I apologize for thinking otherwise. I also thank you for recognzing how I feel about things and would hope you can relate those to other beliefs. I think you have a jaded view of the Bible based on several factors that we haven't begun to talk about I'm sure. However, maybe if you can see that you can agree with this follower of Christ in one topic, perhaps it can open the door to others? I don't know...maybe it's just that the people who call themselves Christians in your life have just been bad representitives? As I'm sure you've guessed, a big part of this ongoing discussion has been to give you a look at somebody who is not the norm. For better or worse, I'm a man who thinks for himself based on the belief of Christ and the rest of the Bible. Despite not understanding or not knowing why God does some of things He does...still believes because I know it's true and I can at least back it up to a point. Anyways, thanks for elabortaing the environment point.

Re: Selectivity

[oneiromancer666]

If you believe that you cannot pick and choose what you believe [in regards to Jesus in your case], then you make yourself vulnerable to bad ideas that others manage to inject into your belief system. This is how religions become corrupted and how humans commit horrible atrocities supposedly in the name of a god; someone introduced a murderous meme into their belief structure, and they failed to question it and eliminate it from their belief structure. Humans must use the faculties of their own mind to evaluate all ideas which are presented to them, and to only accept the ideas which pass their evaluation. Jesus' idea that we must love others as we love ourselves is one of the only ideas in the Christian religion that has passed my evaluation.
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If a psychologist (say, from another planet) who had never heard of Christianity or the Bible, was given two untitled books (we know that one is the Old Testament and the other is the New Testament), and was asked to write a psychological profile of the god described in each book, the psychological profiles would not match. The god described in the Old Testament is largely a god of war, whose name is invoked when the Hebrews slaughtered their neighbors. The god that Jesus describes in the New Testament however is not bloodthirsty at all, and instead leans towards forgiveness most of the time. Your very belief that they are the same god prevents you from seeing that the god that you worship has a split personality.

Re: Selectivity...by whose standards?

[anonymous]

You know, I would agree with you there about bad ideas floating around when not questioned. A prime example would be Mormonism or the extremists of Islam. However, you forget that I did question. I still question and will always question. Why do you assume otherwise? True for some, yes. People are easily persuaded into beliving a lot of rubbish. Jesus said we are sheep. However, you seem to think that everything except love is evil or a 'bad meme'. Or maybe that believing the Bible will only lead to destruction. Why do you focus so much on what mainstream society and psuedo-philosophers have to say about the Bible being full of evil and such? Do you not see how much good is in it? Do you pick and choose what you believe in so much that you completely ignore the things that fly in the face of your views of the Bible? For example, you say that the god of the Old Testament is bad but the god of the New Testament is good. Where do you draw this conclusion? Tell me, have you sat down and read the entire Bible? I haven't. Almost there though...few more months. In your defense, yes, the Old Testament does have much more 'wrath of God' in it. No question. However, over and over again...God shows that He is a God of mercy, of holiness, of forgiveness, of Jesus. So many times people rebel and yet there is God willingly ready to have them come back. The redemption of Israel, of the prophets, and even lay persons. All make mistakes, all transgress against God (and are punished), and yet God forgives and receives those you want forgiveness. Compare this with Jesus. Yes, we mostly hear of the goodness that Jesus does. However, what about the times he is angry? Frustrated? Tells people how it is? The entire book of Revelations?? I see no split personality here whatsoever. I think what is going on is since the Old Testament is so much longer...there is more to pick at. Most of the Old Testament is the Hebrews coming out of captivity and learning to trust God. God is our Father and, as such, is frustrated, disciplines, but loves us just the same. Does this make sense? I don't know how this is coming out since I'm thinking very fast and typing at the same time. Sorry for a short response but I've been busy. Let me know what you think.

Re: Anthropology...memetic detritus in and of itself (cont.)

[anonymous]

P.S. I was re-reading what I wrote (checking for errors and such, you know..) and realized I never commented on the Medieval church think. Look...I know you a lot of bad happened there but please understand that most Christians do not condone it. Further, their ideas are not in use anymore(at least by Protestants and most by Catholics). You really need to stop addressing that or at least giving them so much credit for the current practice of Christianity. It's just not true. I hope this isn't being too harsh but you must know that's not how true followers should, are, and will act. Oh and the Medieval church didn't make sin bad to scare people...sin was always bad and not to be done ever. Read Romans about sin. We all sin but the point is we shouldn't go out of our to sin. I hope this part is making sense. It's rushed...sorry.

Re: Anthropology II

[oneiromancer666]

The current practice and beliefs of Christianity are indeed heavily shaped by the corrupt medieval Church. To be able to see this influence clearly you would have to study not only the history of Christianity, America, Europe, and the Roman Empire, but you would also have to study the histories of several other religions and other regions in order to gain a perspective in which comparison is possible. Without a study of history, anthropology, and psychology, one cannot truly understand a religion, chosen or otherwise. You show a blatant aversion to sciences such as anthropology, which will prevent you from understanding religion, including Christianity.

Re: Anthropology II

[anonymous]

So tell me, Damion, have you studied the history Christianity, America, Europe, and the Roman Empire? Along with all the surrounding regions and possess an understanding of history, anthropology, and psychology? If so, please enlighten me. Frankly, it's become clear that one of two things are happening here. Either your intellectual ego is blinding you to the obvious ridiculous, umbrella like statements you make about religion and humans in general or you are so intimidated by following Jesus that you have decided there is no choice but to turn away from Him. Which ever it is, I'm sorry for you.

Why do you say I have an aversion to science? How would you know this? Have I made any claim to that?

I see that are core fundamental understanding of God is different. I think that is why we come to such different conclusions. You believe religion is man's way of reaching God. I believe Jesus is God's way of reaching man. Does that sounds about right? If so, it would explain your deep attachment to anthropology and the like...

-Sean