Hmn it's true that China lacked a Renaissance... but it is also true that the Chinese spent a century getting picked on by Western powers who had been sleeping with pigs 3 at the same time the Chinese had invented gun powder, paper money, printing (all things that were so essential to the Renaissance and Reformation in Europe did squat for China). When China did experience Dark Ages/choatic periods, a new dynasty would come along and shake things up, often with things such as Neo-Confucianism, Chinese scholars would seek to go back to the past glories of Confucius and Mencius. Except they were turning back to the past glories of Confucius (who was inherently conservative) instead of the past glories of Socrates and Plato and Cicero (who had more liberal values)... I guess in the Wars of the Roses (the period that Westeros is based off) the great houses did raise armies and so on, England btw didn't recover until the reign of Queen Elizabeth1... So it's pretty bad if nice people like Eddard Stark can raise and independent army against the crown and even worse if people like Tywin Lannister can. The Tudors of course put a stop to that, indeed they executed several Dukes of Norfolk (The Howard family seems like the closest England has to the Starks)and it didn't plunge the country in to war, because the monarch's power was consolidated. Of course as you say no one says England and Turkey should be one country just because they were once part of the Roman Empire and people who speak of consolidation and a strong monarchy under Daenerys often forget that Westeros is the size of South America:P Perhaps because everyone in Westeros speaks the same language (except for a few wildlings) so it's easy to imagine that Westeros is medieval England with magic (and therefore the King in the North schtick is just as ridiculous as the Duke of Norfolk declaring himself king of Oop North)...
But don’t you think it’ll ruin the atmosphere? First they have Targarien Tudors, then industrial revolution, and in some centuries they’ll have a museum in Winterfell (closed on Mondays, excursions to be booked in advance), Daenerys the Second riding her ceremonial dragon to opening of parliament, and Petyr Baelish’s grand-grand…son founding a Google or an Apple corporation. It may be good for the people, but too ‘real-lifish’ for me as a reader. Like, idk, Gimli suing the Elves for not recognizing him as an equal.
Also, emotionally I feel that applying western political history to everything and everyone happens too much in real life. Westeros as a fantasy land is there for everyone, Westeros as medieval England politely asks the 'rest of the world' readers to kindly apply for entrance permit, proving on the way that they are worthly of it.
*have to read something about 'war of the roses'. So far my knowledge is limited to Horrible Histories report.*
Hmn personally I love the idea of a modern day Westeros and the idea of Winterfell museum and Daenerys the 2nd as this oh-so-respectable constitutional monarch is awesome. Wouldn't most of Renaissance stuff happen in the free cities happen in Essos though. I could imagine the probable fall of Volantis (which I think will happen in TWOW) as being like the fall of Constantinople (if Daenerys is a heroine) or lack the Mongol sack of Baghdad (if Daenerys is a villain). the printing press could be invented in Qohor, many of the navigational equipment that heralded the age of exploration in Portugal could be invented in Tyrosh...Pentos could be like Florence, Braavos is like Venice or Bruges.... The Pale Mare and the Others could have the same effect as the Black Death did in Europe (in Essos and Westeros respectively) Where was I... I think writing a fantasy set in the Renaissance would be much more interesting than typical fantasy which is always trapped in medieval stasis, for an author to be able to reproduce the same factors (in all their incredible complexity)would take incredible skill and knowledge about history. Of course won't get to read about it because GRRM will barely live to finish the series:(
I think modern day Westeros would be great in a fic, but not the actual series. Also, a Renaissance fantasy... if an author builds it from the start through his text telling the readers: "Hi folks! I'm Umberto Borges, and I'm going to put so much history in this fantasy that your philosophy professors will grant me honorary doctorate!", it will be okay, cool, and a great way to justify one's love for fantasy. But I don't feel such underlying current in ASOIAF, so it would look (for me) as if GRRM just decided to throw in the Renaissance at the last moment.
On the other hand, GRRM manages to introduce the strangest plot twists in such a way that you not only see it as a possibility, but start believing it. Maybe if he was 30 years younger took to Renaissance, it would work out.
By the way, I always thought that Renaissance conflicted with magic (for me here religion equals magic)... hmm, maybe not.
What I would like about Renaissance in Westeros (and Free Cities, and so on) is that people were busy then. As it is now, Westerosi people seem to start wars partly because they have nothing much to do.
nothing so explicit and certainly not a whole series. Just little things, like the epilogue (or maybe a short story set later in Daenerys' reign) saying that peasants are demanding increased wages because 45% died because of the Others or the pale mare. since the increase in wages after the black death is the thing that lead to most of the factors that made the Renaissance possible (name 1) peasant is paid more 2) he starts a business with his excess income 3) his grandchildren are bankers or wool mercers with too much money and use it to patronise artists and humanists. Reading about rediscovered Valyrian knowledge would probably give Westerosi nobility something to do other than starting petty wars over their pride. I think the reason Westeros is trapped in medieval stasis is that it is very hard to develop a scientific method if the seasons are weird and irrational and you spend all your time saving up for a 10 year winter. So I hope that Daenerys and Jon defeat the other's truly and permanently and Westeros begins to experience normal cyclical weather.
Btw, I can't understand how Westeros survives a 10 year long winter, no matter how long they prepare for it! In 21st century with all the refrigerators, long stocking technology and so on we mostly rely on stuff brought from South, and when there was no foreign import an absolutely normal 5 or 6 month (not years!) long winter reduced us to eating half rotten onions by March. Less emphatically, I think 10 years without sun, vegetable, fruits, must pretty much kill everyone. Unless, winter in the South doesn’t make much difference (but then North must have very strong trading relations with the Southern lands, which it seems to lack).
Far Northern people mostly eat what they hunt but Westeros has too dense population to accommodate enough wild animals to feed everyone, and cattle need grass to eat. Fishing wouldn’t be very good; at least I don’t think you can fish a lot out of an ice-hole. Even grain, unless it has mutated, wouldn’t be eatable (or suitable for planting) after much less than 10 years.
Maybe they already have technology? XDDD At least something to save their food for very long time. It was the secret behind Targariens, allowing them to stay in power for 3 centuries XDDD
yeah pretty much that too. It's hard to gain excess income if you're going to starve for 10 years. Honestly I don't know how anyone in the North and the Riverlands is going to survive the upcoming Others unless Daenerys gets their fast as they are likely to die of starvation.
lol, I just imagine how people from the North are running South (food: check; no Others: double check; no dragons burning the Others: triple check and two exclamation marks), and the Reach is hastily calling banners and creating 'Say no to illegal immigration!' propaganda.
I guess in the Wars of the Roses (the period that Westeros is based off) the great houses did raise armies and so on, England btw didn't recover until the reign of Queen Elizabeth1... So it's pretty bad if nice people like Eddard Stark can raise and independent army against the crown and even worse if people like Tywin Lannister can.
The Tudors of course put a stop to that, indeed they executed several Dukes of Norfolk (The Howard family seems like the closest England has to the Starks)and it didn't plunge the country in to war, because the monarch's power was consolidated.
Of course as you say no one says England and Turkey should be one country just because they were once part of the Roman Empire and people who speak of consolidation and a strong monarchy under Daenerys often forget that Westeros is the size of South America:P Perhaps because everyone in Westeros speaks the same language (except for a few wildlings) so it's easy to imagine that Westeros is medieval England with magic (and therefore the King in the North schtick is just as ridiculous as the Duke of Norfolk declaring himself king of Oop North)...
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Also, emotionally I feel that applying western political history to everything and everyone happens too much in real life. Westeros as a fantasy land is there for everyone, Westeros as medieval England politely asks the 'rest of the world' readers to kindly apply for entrance permit, proving on the way that they are worthly of it.
*have to read something about 'war of the roses'. So far my knowledge is limited to Horrible Histories report.*
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Wouldn't most of Renaissance stuff happen in the free cities happen in Essos though. I could imagine the probable fall of Volantis (which I think will happen in TWOW) as being like the fall of Constantinople (if Daenerys is a heroine) or lack the Mongol sack of Baghdad (if Daenerys is a villain). the printing press could be invented in Qohor, many of the navigational equipment that heralded the age of exploration in Portugal could be invented in Tyrosh...Pentos could be like Florence, Braavos is like Venice or Bruges.... The Pale Mare and the Others could have the same effect as the Black Death did in Europe (in Essos and Westeros respectively)
Where was I... I think writing a fantasy set in the Renaissance would be much more interesting than typical fantasy which is always trapped in medieval stasis, for an author to be able to reproduce the same factors (in all their incredible complexity)would take incredible skill and knowledge about history.
Of course won't get to read about it because GRRM will barely live to finish the series:(
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On the other hand, GRRM manages to introduce the strangest plot twists in such a way that you not only see it as a possibility, but start believing it. Maybe if he was 30 years younger took to Renaissance, it would work out.
By the way, I always thought that Renaissance conflicted with magic (for me here religion equals magic)... hmm, maybe not.
What I would like about Renaissance in Westeros (and Free Cities, and so on) is that people were busy then. As it is now, Westerosi people seem to start wars partly because they have nothing much to do.
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Reading about rediscovered Valyrian knowledge would probably give Westerosi nobility something to do other than starting petty wars over their pride.
I think the reason Westeros is trapped in medieval stasis is that it is very hard to develop a scientific method if the seasons are weird and irrational and you spend all your time saving up for a 10 year winter. So I hope that Daenerys and Jon defeat the other's truly and permanently and Westeros begins to experience normal cyclical weather.
Reply
Far Northern people mostly eat what they hunt but Westeros has too dense population to accommodate enough wild animals to feed everyone, and cattle need grass to eat. Fishing wouldn’t be very good; at least I don’t think you can fish a lot out of an ice-hole. Even grain, unless it has mutated, wouldn’t be eatable (or suitable for planting) after much less than 10 years.
Maybe they already have technology? XDDD At least something to save their food for very long time. It was the secret behind Targariens, allowing them to stay in power for 3 centuries XDDD
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Honestly I don't know how anyone in the North and the Riverlands is going to survive the upcoming Others unless Daenerys gets their fast as they are likely to die of starvation.
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