But who can forget this one, so I'm going ahead. Every time I wait until I have time to comment I don't have time. So.
This is an episode I love but don't re-watch. Much like Sleeping in Light actually. There's a lot of torture in this show, you notice? And yes, I have issues in some episodes with Boxleitner's acting. Not this one. He is great. And not just because he's tied up.
I think back-to-back 'John in peril' season-ending cliffhangers would have been a bit too much actually. Although yeah, I'd have been back with bells on for S5 and beyond.
The points you make about truth are one reason I read commentary and blogs so much. It's fascinating and sometime appalling how differently people see the Truth. I do think that soldiers have to face the fact that truth changes, or at least that policies supposedly based on truth change. That's why the focus in training is more on the team, taking care of those next to you. The mission is what you do, the team is why you do it.
Would John have been able to withstand the torture if he hadn't been through death already? I would think it would give you perspective...
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there. Susan having to choose between EarthForce, the Alliance, and her 'people' would have been awesome. Her fighting with Garibaldi over the teeps--awesome. A different actor (for Byron, and another name please, too?) and some better lines would have been nice.
God, it would have been nice to see the wedding. For Lennier's face alone. More of everything actually. More of Londo's time on Centauri Prime, more of Virini. Leave Marcus alive and have epic hair battles as they preen in front of Susan competing for her attention before she runs off with Lyta.
I think back-to-back 'John in peril' season-ending cliffhangers would have been a bit too much actually.
I had considered this, too. I wonder if there is a happy medium - could they have ended S4 at The Face of the Enemy, maybe? But then that leaves things uncertain for both Garibaldi and Sheridan, which is preeeetty much where we were at the end of Z'ha'dum. Maybe a little too much redundancy there.
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there.
Hee! I'm really glad you said this, because this is sort of my preference, too. I think there would have been some interesting drama and character development for Ivanova with the teeps onboard. I think I would have enjoyed seeing her interact with Byron, and what her views on him would have been.
God, it would have been nice to see the wedding.
I want this so bad it makes my heart hurt. Would it have been an Earth ceremony? A Minbari ceremony? Some hybrid of both? Maybe we could have seen John's sister again? *sigh* TV weddings... love.
I had considered this, too. I wonder if there is a happy medium - could they have ended S4 at The Face of the Enemy, maybe? But then that leaves things uncertain for both Garibaldi and Sheridan, which is preeeetty much where we were at the end of Z'ha'dum. Maybe a little too much redundancy there.
Eh, I don't think so. Most shows tend to do season-ending cliffhangers with the main characters in peril. It's a common enough trope that I don't think it would have been that big of a deal. Audiences always pretty much know everyone's going to make it out alive, so it's more about "how will they get out of this one?" which is always a fun way to spend the summer.
It had never actually occurred to me that we hadn't seen the wedding. Huh. Seriously, how did we miss that one? Now that I know I didn't get it I want it so much that my heart is hurting, too!
Earth-style or a mix. Undoubtedly with a tediously long Minbari ritual to repeat once they got to Minbar. I wrote it out for myself once. Sigh.
And yes, we didn't see near enough of Lizzie. I still think they did it before they left Earth space so John's Dad could attend. Why would they leave and have it on the way back? Hopefully someone found his Mum and let her come.
Lyta got Susan's role with Byron so it might have been a bit ick. Although she was so strung out and vulnerable I cannot almost see it if I squint.
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there. Susan having to choose between EarthForce, the Alliance, and her 'people' would have been awesome. Her fighting with Garibaldi over the teeps--awesome. A different actor (for Byron, and another name please, too?) and some better lines would have been nice.
I mostly agree with this. I think cutting the telepath arc down by about half - so that it only stretched over six or so episodes instead of, God, what, twelve? would have helped so much. It's not that that whole plot was bad, it was just stretched out wayyyyyyyy too long.
I'd have kept Lochley, though. I think an S5 with Susan still grieving over Marcus, blaming herself, and being drawn to (not sucky) Byron would be really interesting. I don't see her as being able to fulfill her duties as CO in that scenario, though. Maybe after two or three episodes Sheridan asks her to step down - or brings in a new XO (Lochley) who essentially starts running the station. Lochley can then be a foil, lots of dramatic tension, both between her and Susan and between Susan and Sheridan. Toss Garibaldi into the mix and you have a lot more going on.
I think a lot of the problem with using Lyta in this scenario is that aside from Zack, no one really cared about Lyta the way they did for Susan. She was the very powerful teep who was mucking things up by throwing in her lot with Byron's gang, but was anyone really that worried about her personally? I don't know. Whereas with Susan, you would have had a lot of characters very invested in that storyline from a personal standpoint, not just a protection of the station, not screwing things up with Earth, kind of way.
Well, the telepath arc would have been half as long if we'd had the full Minbari Civil War *sulks* Stretched-out S5 is stretched out.
I like bringing Lochley in as well, cause I like her, just not as well as Susan. I even like the first Mrs. Sheridan aspect. And no one ever worried about Lyta except Zack (and maybe Garibaldi a little). It would have been even more interesting if it had stayed Talia...now there's a conflict for our Susan!
I...wasn't a huge fan of Talia. I'm willing to sacrifice that extra bit of conflict, LOL. We don't want to pile too much on and make S5 the Susan Ivanova show!
But who can forget this one, so I'm going ahead. Every time I wait until I have time to comment I don't have time. So.
This is an episode I love but don't re-watch. Much like Sleeping in Light actually. There's a lot of torture in this show, you notice? And yes, I have issues in some episodes with Boxleitner's acting. Not this one. He is great. And not just because he's tied up.
I think back-to-back 'John in peril' season-ending cliffhangers would have been a bit too much actually. Although yeah, I'd have been back with bells on for S5 and beyond.
The points you make about truth are one reason I read commentary and blogs so much. It's fascinating and sometime appalling how differently people see the Truth. I do think that soldiers have to face the fact that truth changes, or at least that policies supposedly based on truth change. That's why the focus in training is more on the team, taking care of those next to you. The mission is what you do, the team is why you do it.
Would John have been able to withstand the torture if he hadn't been through death already? I would think it would give you perspective...
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there. Susan having to choose between EarthForce, the Alliance, and her 'people' would have been awesome. Her fighting with Garibaldi over the teeps--awesome. A different actor (for Byron, and another name please, too?) and some better lines would have been nice.
God, it would have been nice to see the wedding. For Lennier's face alone. More of everything actually. More of Londo's time on Centauri Prime, more of Virini. Leave Marcus alive and have epic hair battles as they preen in front of Susan competing for her attention before she runs off with Lyta.
Did I say that out loud?
More later, have fun.
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I had considered this, too. I wonder if there is a happy medium - could they have ended S4 at The Face of the Enemy, maybe? But then that leaves things uncertain for both Garibaldi and Sheridan, which is preeeetty much where we were at the end of Z'ha'dum. Maybe a little too much redundancy there.
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there.
Hee! I'm really glad you said this, because this is sort of my preference, too. I think there would have been some interesting drama and character development for Ivanova with the teeps onboard. I think I would have enjoyed seeing her interact with Byron, and what her views on him would have been.
God, it would have been nice to see the wedding.
I want this so bad it makes my heart hurt. Would it have been an Earth ceremony? A Minbari ceremony? Some hybrid of both? Maybe we could have seen John's sister again? *sigh* TV weddings... love.
Reply
Eh, I don't think so. Most shows tend to do season-ending cliffhangers with the main characters in peril. It's a common enough trope that I don't think it would have been that big of a deal. Audiences always pretty much know everyone's going to make it out alive, so it's more about "how will they get out of this one?" which is always a fun way to spend the summer.
It had never actually occurred to me that we hadn't seen the wedding. Huh. Seriously, how did we miss that one? Now that I know I didn't get it I want it so much that my heart is hurting, too!
Reply
I wrote it out for myself once. Sigh.
And yes, we didn't see near enough of Lizzie. I still think they did it before they left Earth space so John's Dad could attend. Why would they leave and have it on the way back? Hopefully someone found his Mum and let her come.
Lyta got Susan's role with Byron so it might have been a bit ick. Although she was so strung out and vulnerable I cannot almost see it if I squint.
Reply
I mostly agree with this. I think cutting the telepath arc down by about half - so that it only stretched over six or so episodes instead of, God, what, twelve? would have helped so much. It's not that that whole plot was bad, it was just stretched out wayyyyyyyy too long.
I'd have kept Lochley, though. I think an S5 with Susan still grieving over Marcus, blaming herself, and being drawn to (not sucky) Byron would be really interesting. I don't see her as being able to fulfill her duties as CO in that scenario, though. Maybe after two or three episodes Sheridan asks her to step down - or brings in a new XO (Lochley) who essentially starts running the station. Lochley can then be a foil, lots of dramatic tension, both between her and Susan and between Susan and Sheridan. Toss Garibaldi into the mix and you have a lot more going on.
I think a lot of the problem with using Lyta in this scenario is that aside from Zack, no one really cared about Lyta the way they did for Susan. She was the very powerful teep who was mucking things up by throwing in her lot with Byron's gang, but was anyone really that worried about her personally? I don't know. Whereas with Susan, you would have had a lot of characters very invested in that storyline from a personal standpoint, not just a protection of the station, not screwing things up with Earth, kind of way.
Reply
I like bringing Lochley in as well, cause I like her, just not as well as Susan. I even like the first Mrs. Sheridan aspect. And no one ever worried about Lyta except Zack (and maybe Garibaldi a little). It would have been even more interesting if it had stayed Talia...now there's a conflict for our Susan!
My head is full of triangles tonight.
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I...wasn't a huge fan of Talia. I'm willing to sacrifice that extra bit of conflict, LOL. We don't want to pile too much on and make S5 the Susan Ivanova show!
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