New SERGE entry...
Parts One through Three of Serge's interesting times can be found in this entry:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/benchilada/50530.html
( In which benjamin introduces a damn plot )
http://www.livejournal.com/users/benchilada/50530.html
( In which benjamin introduces a damn plot )
early in the story and all, but the arc paragraph reads more like a
plot description rather than an actual plot. It's like you are
giving instructions to some LARPy for him to respond to. It would
have been better if the cook guy had PLAYED BACK excerpts of the
recordings rather than giving us the summary. This would have:
1) Given us opportunity to hear how the UMI members talk, thus
fleshing out their collective character some.
2) Serge and the others could have had dialogue during it,
continuing the flow and allowing us to see Serge's reaction to
primary information.
3) Allowed the reader for his/herself to parce together the plot,
rather than having it spoon-fed to him.
The way it is, it seems a bit juvenile to me.
To repeat, the story has more a plot description than an actual plot. All one can
say now is that the Ben fan-boys will all say, "Gee, that Ben sure
has a way with words, images and some cool ideas." But you won't
hook readers who are not Ben fan-bys that are used to reading Neal Stephenson, Warren Ellis, or Harlan Ellison, say. Those guys introduce plots fast. And plots make you care.
Look at the first two pages of "Snow Crash". Stephenson starts with
some cool ideas and wild descriptions. But he hooks you by making
you really curious to find out why a Pizza Dilevery Guy is equipped
like a William Gibson character. This also serves as a point of
contact that is familiar to the reader. Additionally, a pizza delivery guy
is immediately a somewhat sympathetic character. Right now, no one
really knows how to feel about Serge. See Draggonlaady's comment. Serge's responses to events somehow have to tell us enough about him to make us care.
With the pizza delivery guy, you are immediately hooked into the
action of his next delivery. We learn a lot about his attitudes
toward the world, (a somewhat unfamiliar one) by the wry commentary
and choice of words, "bimbo box' for example. The action introduces
us to Y.T. and we learn about La Cosinostra Pizza. (The mafia
references again being a point of reference for the reader, allowing
the reader to interpolate some of the intervening history, forming a
fun commentary all on its own.) This is all very economical.
Right now in your story, we have an unfamiliar world, (of the
cliched cyber/postcyper punk variety.) Ok, I happen to enjoy that
setting too, but you gotta make us care about your characters, start
explaining some of the world, and not insult us with plots delivered
as explanations for idiots. Sticking it in dialog doesn't change the fact.
On a minor note: "There’s a television in the corner in the
corner..." has a repeated phrase in it in it.
Pleased to be forgiven for my harshness.
Me luv you.
Reply
Yeah, you added a plot, but barely. I realize that its early in the story and all, but the arc paragraph reads more like a plot description rather than an actual plot...It would have been better if the cook guy had PLAYED BACK excerpts of the recordings rather than giving us the summary.
I must say, I wanted the arc paragraph to be overwhelming. We have no idea who ANY of these people are, and I’ll bet you my left nut that less than nine out of ten people in the country knows what the fuck a mendicant is without looking it up. I wanted to shit all of this stuff on Serge *and* the reader at the same time. Some explanations will be forthcoming in the next installment, MAYBE some playback, but I want an unreliable narrator when Moon Turk relates the information he has. Recordings are too precise.
1) Given us opportunity to hear how the UMI members talk, thus fleshing out their collective character some.
On its way. I’m not going to explain every group the first moment they show up. Is it not enough that we’ve CAPTURED a UMI member at the end of the story?
2) Serge and the others could have had dialogue during it, continuing the flow and allowing us to see Serge's reaction to primary information.
Serge is fucked-up right now. He's exhausted and affected by the machine in MT's. He’s a pretty steady character - which I think I hinted at in earlier installments, and which will become more clear as time goes on - and MT and Mike wanted him shaky when they revealed all this stuff to him. Again, I wanted all of that shat upon both Serge AND the readers.
3) Allowed the reader for his/herself to parce together the plot, rather than having it spoon-fed to him.
The way it is, it seems a bit juvenile to me.
Oh, SNAP!
I could be wrong, but I don’t think I’ve spoon-fed anything. Apart from parroting the words of that one “plot paragraph,” I dare you to tell me anything else about the plot/what’s going on. You don’t know enough yet, I’d wager. If I’d just said, “John Smith is going to kill the Emperor at 6pm on Thursday, and we have to stop him,” I’d figure that as spoon-feeding.
The story has more a plot summary than an actual plot...won't hook readers that are used to reading Neal Stephenson, Warren Ellis, or Harlan Ellison, say. Those guys have plots. Plots make you care.
Read the beginning of Diamond Age again. Read that first paragraph. Read the whole thing about Bud. Is it important? Sure, I guess, but Stephenson throws about a dozen concepts at you in ONE PARAGRAPH, none of which ultimately have a damn thing to do with that book at all, save that he hints at something really important. Something we won’t learn anything about for a while.
Look at the first two pages of "Snow Crash". Stephenson starts with some cool ideas and wild descriptions. But he hooks you by making you really curious to find out why a Pizza Dilevery Guy is equipped like a William Gibson character. This also serves as a point of contact that is familiar to the reader. Also, a pizza delivery guy is immediately a somewhat sympathetic character. Right now, no one really knows how to feel about Serge. Serge's responses to events somehow have to make us care.
The “chase sequence” of Snow Crash was why it took me three times to start the book. In addition, Serge is not going to be a sympathetic character in the sense that I’m going to have an “everyman” hero: we’ve already established that he took part in a strange ritual earlier in the night to empower the Emperor with Orgon energy by jacking-off a lot of people.
Right now in your story, we have an unfamiliar world, (of the cliched cyber/postcyper punk variety.)...and not insult us with plots delivered as explenations for idiots.
If this were a “traditional” novel, we’d be about thirteen pages into the book. Again, using Stephenson, we still wouldn’t know much about the world yet. Worlds should unfold, not be presented. And who’s to say that’s the whole plot?
I do thank you most profusely and with complete honesty for your brutal look at my story. Again, just because MT overheard people doesn't mean he really knows what's going on...
But again, in all honesty, THANK YOU!
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IF YOU GET THERE QUICK ENOUGH IT WILL PROBABLY STILL BE UNDER 'NEW STORIES' ITS CALLED GETTING USEd TO IT
I DONT EVEN THINK ITS VERY GOOD
BUT ITS CURRENTLY RATED 44/3619 OR SOMETHING FANTABULOUS
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Those are your artistic choices and I think they are quite reasonable. My problem is that the paragraph under discussion had exactly the OPPOSITE effect on me.
I didn't feel overwhelmed the least by it. It was just too neat for the surrounding grit. (That it will prove unreliable or incomplete was something I took for granted. Indeed, if it gave all the plot away, that probably wouldn't be good and I didn't expect that from you.) I was thinking that excerpts of a recording would be more vague, would, of course, be incomplete, and would overwhelm the reader MORE because of the unfamiliar lingo and references of the beggars. The recording would only provide tantalizing hints of their society, not explain them too much at all. (To answer one of your other points.) While at the same time, the recording excerpts would be just barely understandable enough that the reader could deduce the basic content of what is plainly given in those sentences as they are now.
Oh, and I just re-read your installment again and I take back the juvenile remark. It didn't read that way to me this time. I must have been in an old curmudgeon state when I read your piece and wrote the first time.
"If this were a “traditional” novel, we’d be about thirteen pages into the book. Again, using Stephenson, we still wouldn’t know much about the world yet. Worlds should unfold, not be presented. And who’s to say that’s the whole plot?"
I never expected that it was a traditional novel. Of course worlds should unfold. I agree completely with all of that and I see you have been doing exactly that. I wasn't criticising this at all.
I think you miss-understood what I was trying to get at and that's my fault for not being clear enough. Yes, you are not "spoon-feeding" the actual plot cause, this is just some information that supposedly will trigger action on Serge's part in future installments and so it moves the plot along. I understood that. I understood that it was unreliable or incomplete. I think what I was reacting to was the way that the information was delivered seemed out of sync with the surrounding style a bit. (As I said in other words above.) Of course this is all your artistic choice. It just bothered me a little is all. Maybe when there is much more of the story written down, and I re-read this in the larger context, I won't notice it a bit.
I'm still trying to put into words what I was trying to say. I guess it is just that before in the piece you have to work to understand everything a bit because of the wonderful and unusual environment. All of a sudden, there are these few plot moving sentences written as plain as day "explaining" some of the world. Instead of being so plain as day, which contrasted with the surrounding style, they could have hinted more and maintained or even strengthened the mystery of the place. This could have been done many ways, the recording excerpt, for example, or just having MT's and Mike's dialog not be in such plain speech. But hey, maybe MT and Mike like to speak plainly sometimes. Especially with something important like this. Maybe that's part of their characters. They would be thin characters if they keep up the "fuck you, you wombat snoodler" repartee all the time. (Also in your defense, the sentences in question did add new mystery to the story: who and what are these groups mentioned. How do they relate to each other and the rest of society?)
Anyway, I'm definitely enjoying it and I'm looking forward your next installment.
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