In which I get off topic about religion and rivers...
Lola: Basically my motto is, "You are a dumbass, and while I cannot change that, I can choose to not be a dumbass in return."
Nancy: sounds good
Lola: I like it
It's either that or something similar to "Everything was beautiful and nothing hurt."
Which is what I recite when I want to go to my happy place of acceptance and intelligence.
Nancy: oh, mine are "Carry me, Jesus!" and "My new body is coming. It's just 'on order.'"
Lola: I'm pretty sure Karma just giggles in my general direction when I call in favours. The term, "How about you help yourself this time." comes to mnd...
Her: I don't believe in karma
Lola: I do
Otherwise the stupid people get away with things
Her: No, there is a judgement coming and I'm not involved in that. I believe our actions have logical consequences, but I don't believe there is a cosmic force of balance. God will have the final say, and that is good enough for me.
Lola: I don't believe in a concious God, more of an everything force.
Her: I believe in a loving, caring, Daddy-figure, all powerful, all knowing, all present God who cares not only about the grand workings of the universe, but also about the details in my own live, right down to my hopes and dreams, my desire to be a good steward of the money and gifts I have been entrusted and the in between things like how the governments are run. I believe He is deeply grieved by the state of the world, fallen in sin as it is, and I believe that His heart hurts for every single person on this planet.
Lola: I think if God were all that he'd explode.
Her: Nope, He's God.
Lola: I can't believe in a conscious God because even with free will everything that's conscious picks sides in one way or another. Natural things like wind and water, they don't pick sides.
Her: He exists outside of time (he created that for our benefit). He exists outside of our finite understanding of the workings of the universe, physics, biology, psychology. He understands the world, the universe and everything in it because He created it.
I believe in free will. God loves you so much that He will allow you to chose not to accept His free gift of His Son. He will never force Himself upon anyone.
And you're right -every choice is choosing a side. Most don't realise that they're choosing a side.
Natural things do not pick sides, you're right. They follow the rules and laws set out to them by God when he created the universe. They aren't arbitrary. You will never wake up to find that the ocean and the global winds have changed position and that there's now a jet stream of salt water swirling around the world and all the fish have died because they're lying in a giant hole of air.
We live in a fallen world. When the first sin was committed, all of creation began to suffer because of it.
Everything that is happening now, *everything* - earthquakes, floods, murders, wars, riots, everything - happens because sin has ruined this world.
Lola: I see it more of everyone and everything living on a river. The river provides us with the things we need, it washes up driftwood when we need to build homes, it carries people with it into our paths, it provides the nutrition we need for growing food. If you jump in, sometimes you float and sometimes you sink. If you throw in garbage then your part of the river become polluted. Sometimes is makes another person's part dirty. That person can choose to throw in more garbage or clean up their act. If something large hits the water it doesn't just effect one person it splashes us all. Some people choose to keep splashing, others choose to accept that they are wet and relax enough to dry off.
No matter what we all need to river, though we call it by many different names and see it in many different ways. The river can only give to us what we take from it. Though we are given water, we must irrigate our own crops. The river does not choose to give or take, it simple is the river. Some fight against the current and try to dam it, others work with it to make wheels spin. No matter what the river flows through all our lives, not changing us directly but effect us in the way we treat it.
Her: There is a lot of logic in that, and I will agree that yes, our actions affect not only us, but those around us, sometimes more, sometimes less. I also agree that we are not meant to be passive - we are expected to work and make an effort to take care of ourselves and those around us.
If we truly negate the 'caring, involved God' from the picture, then everything else is meaningless. Nothing matters, everything happens by chance and there are no consequences beyond the physical ones we can see. There are no rules, no right or wrong, and no absolute morality. If the river is just that, a neutral, live-giving force, then it doesn't care what we do with it, or with each other.
If the river has a conscious purpose and intent, then it imparts responsibility to those who come in contact with it.
Lola: The point of the river is just that, it's a river. The only responsibility that we have is to ourselves. We are not responsible for others. It is in choosing to be responsible that we become good people. Maybe further down the river, someone is growing bananas and since you never see that person you never get those bananas.
We set up trade routes, we make connections and alliances. We break them. We protect those that can provide us with something and sometimes take make connections before we can see what other people really offer. Those connections give us the things that make life worthwhile. Without those connections and alliances, we'd be stuck with only eating the crops and using the goods we provide to ourselves and no one is really able to live a full life without getting something from someone else.
The river merely allows the opportunity to connect. It's up to us to make the choices to do so. Without making connections you can still be perfectly happy and not effecting or harming the river for yourself or anyone else but you might miss out on something that could change your life from okay to AMAZING. Even one simple trade could provide you or someone else with the most precious thing ever.
I think the best part about the river is that no matter how one person sees it or what another person says about it, it's just that: a river. It cannot be changed into a mountain or a tree. No one else's impression of the river can force you to change your view. And because they are personal opinions and do not change the river, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of the river.
Some swim, some stay as far away as possible. Some try to pick meaning from the sounds of it lapping against the shore, while other's splash the water and then tell others that they are hearing sounds made by the river itself. Some scream across the water at those around them, saying, "This is my river. You can't touch it. Find your own." Others say, "My river is better than your river." Some say there is only one river, others that it is a large series of streams and pools or many rivers that come together. Some simply look at the river and see it as beautiful.
Whatever you choose the river to be, it is there for all.
Nancy: sounds good
Lola: I like it
It's either that or something similar to "Everything was beautiful and nothing hurt."
Which is what I recite when I want to go to my happy place of acceptance and intelligence.
Nancy: oh, mine are "Carry me, Jesus!" and "My new body is coming. It's just 'on order.'"
Lola: I'm pretty sure Karma just giggles in my general direction when I call in favours. The term, "How about you help yourself this time." comes to mnd...
Her: I don't believe in karma
Lola: I do
Otherwise the stupid people get away with things
Her: No, there is a judgement coming and I'm not involved in that. I believe our actions have logical consequences, but I don't believe there is a cosmic force of balance. God will have the final say, and that is good enough for me.
Lola: I don't believe in a concious God, more of an everything force.
Her: I believe in a loving, caring, Daddy-figure, all powerful, all knowing, all present God who cares not only about the grand workings of the universe, but also about the details in my own live, right down to my hopes and dreams, my desire to be a good steward of the money and gifts I have been entrusted and the in between things like how the governments are run. I believe He is deeply grieved by the state of the world, fallen in sin as it is, and I believe that His heart hurts for every single person on this planet.
Lola: I think if God were all that he'd explode.
Her: Nope, He's God.
Lola: I can't believe in a conscious God because even with free will everything that's conscious picks sides in one way or another. Natural things like wind and water, they don't pick sides.
Her: He exists outside of time (he created that for our benefit). He exists outside of our finite understanding of the workings of the universe, physics, biology, psychology. He understands the world, the universe and everything in it because He created it.
I believe in free will. God loves you so much that He will allow you to chose not to accept His free gift of His Son. He will never force Himself upon anyone.
And you're right -every choice is choosing a side. Most don't realise that they're choosing a side.
Natural things do not pick sides, you're right. They follow the rules and laws set out to them by God when he created the universe. They aren't arbitrary. You will never wake up to find that the ocean and the global winds have changed position and that there's now a jet stream of salt water swirling around the world and all the fish have died because they're lying in a giant hole of air.
We live in a fallen world. When the first sin was committed, all of creation began to suffer because of it.
Everything that is happening now, *everything* - earthquakes, floods, murders, wars, riots, everything - happens because sin has ruined this world.
Lola: I see it more of everyone and everything living on a river. The river provides us with the things we need, it washes up driftwood when we need to build homes, it carries people with it into our paths, it provides the nutrition we need for growing food. If you jump in, sometimes you float and sometimes you sink. If you throw in garbage then your part of the river become polluted. Sometimes is makes another person's part dirty. That person can choose to throw in more garbage or clean up their act. If something large hits the water it doesn't just effect one person it splashes us all. Some people choose to keep splashing, others choose to accept that they are wet and relax enough to dry off.
No matter what we all need to river, though we call it by many different names and see it in many different ways. The river can only give to us what we take from it. Though we are given water, we must irrigate our own crops. The river does not choose to give or take, it simple is the river. Some fight against the current and try to dam it, others work with it to make wheels spin. No matter what the river flows through all our lives, not changing us directly but effect us in the way we treat it.
Her: There is a lot of logic in that, and I will agree that yes, our actions affect not only us, but those around us, sometimes more, sometimes less. I also agree that we are not meant to be passive - we are expected to work and make an effort to take care of ourselves and those around us.
If we truly negate the 'caring, involved God' from the picture, then everything else is meaningless. Nothing matters, everything happens by chance and there are no consequences beyond the physical ones we can see. There are no rules, no right or wrong, and no absolute morality. If the river is just that, a neutral, live-giving force, then it doesn't care what we do with it, or with each other.
If the river has a conscious purpose and intent, then it imparts responsibility to those who come in contact with it.
Lola: The point of the river is just that, it's a river. The only responsibility that we have is to ourselves. We are not responsible for others. It is in choosing to be responsible that we become good people. Maybe further down the river, someone is growing bananas and since you never see that person you never get those bananas.
We set up trade routes, we make connections and alliances. We break them. We protect those that can provide us with something and sometimes take make connections before we can see what other people really offer. Those connections give us the things that make life worthwhile. Without those connections and alliances, we'd be stuck with only eating the crops and using the goods we provide to ourselves and no one is really able to live a full life without getting something from someone else.
The river merely allows the opportunity to connect. It's up to us to make the choices to do so. Without making connections you can still be perfectly happy and not effecting or harming the river for yourself or anyone else but you might miss out on something that could change your life from okay to AMAZING. Even one simple trade could provide you or someone else with the most precious thing ever.
I think the best part about the river is that no matter how one person sees it or what another person says about it, it's just that: a river. It cannot be changed into a mountain or a tree. No one else's impression of the river can force you to change your view. And because they are personal opinions and do not change the river, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of the river.
Some swim, some stay as far away as possible. Some try to pick meaning from the sounds of it lapping against the shore, while other's splash the water and then tell others that they are hearing sounds made by the river itself. Some scream across the water at those around them, saying, "This is my river. You can't touch it. Find your own." Others say, "My river is better than your river." Some say there is only one river, others that it is a large series of streams and pools or many rivers that come together. Some simply look at the river and see it as beautiful.
Whatever you choose the river to be, it is there for all.