Part the Secondasta77January 17 2009, 20:22:08 UTC
Lee was such a hero in this episode.
YES! Thank You!!! I talked at length about Lee in my post (yeah, you’re shocked ;) and it struck me how strong he was in the episode. How he worked through any personal pain to keep the fleet going. Jamie commented in an interview that Lee, in the final episodes, is looking forward and I really sensed that here. Also, earth has never held the same meaning to him as it has to the others and that made it somewhat easier for him to not fall apart and push ahead.
I know that I enjoyed her relationship with Lee more in this episode than I ever had before: that finally it felt healthy and safe and I was even sort of nostalgic for it even though y'all know how much I HATED the entire quadrangle back in S3.
Me too! They seemed really comfortable and at ease with each other and I never sensed that while they were dating or even married. And, for the first time, I saw chemistry. I should have known it was doomed. :/
Unlike some, I never had a problem with the female body count in S4 because I felt it was more a result of there being more secondary female characters than male characters of equivalent importance. I'm not sure if I think this ought to tip the scales. I'm also not sure I entirely disagree with the dramatic decision, which is an uncomfortable place for me to be. Especially since they didn't just kill off a female character to give male characters motivation, they also killed off one of their most prominent characters of colour. Yes we still have Athena/the Eights and Bill Adama, but people of African-American heritage have a particularly stereotypical tendency to get offed.
I’ve seen this brought up elsewhere and maybe I’m being naïve or blind, but my mind never went there. For me, it was never an issue that Lee married a woman who was not white, so her color wasn’t an issue when it came to her death. Dee just happened to be black and just happened to fit a role they needed - someone we knew well enough and cared enough about to make their death tragic, yet not one of the main characters that are still needed to tell their story. Maybe we could criticize the show for not casting a African American as Kara or Lee or Tigh or Helo, the show is predominately white, but Dee’s race was a non-issue for me…if that makes any sense.
Okay, Bill. That was...ridiculous. It was bad enough when you were either so ignorant or so selfish as to start playing the "who lost more?" game with your son when Kara died. To do it when that's his WIFE on the mortuary table is pretty fucking terrible.
I can’t add anything to this. WORD.
The next thing we see is Lee leaving the morgue. I don't imagine it was because he was done spending time with his wife, but I wouldn't want to stay there while my drunken father made her death all about him and his failures either.
That’s my take on it as well. If his father couldn’t be there for him, he sure as hell wasn’t going to be there to prop up his father, again.
BSG is usually really good at subtle acting. But no. Not here.
And Adama’s scenery chewing was made worse by the fact that everyone around him was going with the subtle acting approach.
I think this will be hella interesting and potentially awesome. Because we've never seen her give up before.
When Laura Roslin breaks, you know there is a problem.
Watching Laura have a crisis of faith and attempt defacto suicide is going to be awesome.
It’s an interesting parallel with Dee. Dee wanted to get it over with quickly. She gave herself one last happy day and then ended her suffering. Laura wants to suffer. She wants the slow, painful death because, in her mind, that’s what she’s done to her people and she needs to be punished. She promised to save them and now they are all going to die in the cold and isolation of space.
But I do think that Adama royally frakked that one up. What Laura actually needed at that point was for someone to say, "The hell I'm leaving you alone," and like, grab her in a bear hug no matter how much she yelled at them.
And when has Adama ever been able to deduce what other people need? It’s ALL ABOUT HIM.
Re: Part the SecondnightxadeJanuary 17 2009, 22:37:04 UTC
I'm not surprised that the issue of Dee's race has been raised. It's a typical reaction from some people who hunt for such things to make an issue out of. Sad, really, because I'm black and that's most certainly not what I thought of until I read Becca's journal. (However, I do always notice when Simon disappears from the Cylon roster ;)
Re: Part the Secondasta77January 17 2009, 23:50:18 UTC
I appreciate reading your opinion since, being Caucasian, I stop and think maybe I'm being oblivious to something I shouldn't be oblivious to. In this instance, I just felt there was no other character that could fit the role being created here (someone we cared about dying, whose absence wouldn't affect the the overall arcs) and Kandyse's/Dee's race wasn't a factor.
Simon, on the other hand ;)....yeah, he tends to often be cut out of the episodes or forgotten all together or, my favorite, in the episode without any lines. :/
Re: Part the SecondnightxadeJanuary 18 2009, 01:12:22 UTC
It's one of those things I try not to notice, but sometimes can't help, but do so (like Jazz in Transformers). In most cases, it just annoys me when people do make an issue where it shouldn't be the focus. But in poor Simon's case, it kinda struck me because, while I understand not having small characters in episodes to save costs (like when Leoben didn't fly in the mission to destroy the Hub, only the Sixes and Eights), his absence was very pointed in the episode where D'Anna was being all bossy about going down to the Eye of Jupiter and someone said "We all voted. We all have to agree," or some such, only, Simon wasn't there. Perhaps he sent his vote in by proxy.
Re: Part the Secondasta77January 19 2009, 01:44:59 UTC
I know there have been episodes where the intention was to have certain characters in them, but, due to scheduling, they weren't available. For instance, Billy gave some lame ass reason for not going with Laura when she broke out of the brig and escaped off Galactica because Paul Campbell had to shoot a pilot and they had to write him out of the next couple of eps. Rick Worthy's work on Eyes may have been an issue during his early appearances on BSG, but in Seasons 3 and 4 Simon could have and should have had a bigger presence.
Re: Part the SecondbeccatoriaJanuary 19 2009, 11:40:48 UTC
Oh, interesting; I didn't know that. I mean, it's still frustrating, but maybe if there aren't scheduling conflicts this time, we'll get more of a chance to see his character, if at least some of the reason he didn't do so much was schedule-related rather than disinterest on the part of the writers? Then again, early season four, when he was around just as much as Doral (and Cavil but he's a big name guest actor), and he still didn't really get to say anything.
Re: Part the SecondnightxadeJanuary 20 2009, 18:57:12 UTC
Just to clarify, I don't think he was left out of episodes in general or that one specifically because he is black. It's just one of those things that happened to stand out in that particular episode because it was considered a vote important enough that all Cylons had to make it, but one, who happened to be black, was missing.
Re: Part the Secondasta77January 20 2009, 23:44:22 UTC
I understood the point you were making. And I don't think anyone on the show left out Simon because his portrayer was black or killed off Dee for the same reason. But I do think an argument could be made, and you'd probably agree with me, that they could put more consideration (as could many other series) into the limited role of some characters and how their lack of presence or a death might be perceived. And I generally look to what the show has done well - a Hispanic lead, two stars over fifty, half the cast being female, etc.
Re: Part the SecondbeccatoriaJanuary 18 2009, 05:21:55 UTC
It does make me feel a fair bit better to know that it wasn't how you read the situation. As I said, I actually agree with the decision dramatically, but...I didn't want to assume I was correct and wanted to be open to the possibility that I was blind to something.
I have seen a number of people raising Dee's status as a woman as problematic in her death, but surprisingly few raising her ethnicity. I think I mostly mentioned it because I found myself disagreeing with the accusations of sexism but wasn't sure that was a defensible position, and then when trying to think critically about my own initial response, thought, well, I ought to acknowledge the other potential "ism" too. Which was, perhaps, not the best decision. I don't know.
But I do very much appreciate your opinion.
And I agree. Simon (Cymon?!) needs like, a personality and LINES stat. Perhaps now that the Cavil faction is comprised of only three models, if we see them again, he'll actually get to SAY SOMETHING. All we really know about him is that he seems to somewhat fill their scientist/doctor role. But even that's very vague.
Re: Part the SecondbeccatoriaJanuary 18 2009, 05:15:14 UTC
I talked at length about Lee in my post (yeah, you’re shocked ;)
COMPLETELY SHOCKED! :p (but srsly, I will go read shortly and am sure I will enjoy). But yeah, Lee was great in this episode. I think not only is he in the position of looking forward and having Earth mean less to him personally, I think that it's easier for Lee to step up and have faith in himself when he has no other options. In some ways he's very like Roslin: when there's no one else to do it, that's when Lee just...loses his baggage and makes himself act. It's when he feels marginalised and irrelevant that he goes all emo and suicidal and overeats and stuff.
so her color wasn’t an issue when it came to her death.
Well, as I said, I actually basically agree with the dramatic decision and my first instinct is to agree and say that in this instance it was an example of killing a character who happened to be both female and black. That said, I know that the reason I'm giving, while sometimes valid, is also often used as an excuse when other factors are in play. This is more...me trying to be responsible and rigorous in my assumptions?
While I'm not saying it was necessarily what happened here, I'd also comment that in television and film, broadly speaking, women and/or people of colour are far more often cast as secondary characters who are in turn far more likely to be killed for emotional effect. So if that's something that's going on here, then it means it's less that Dualla's death in this particular instance dodgy in isolation and more that it plays into an unfortunate wider pattern of casting women and people of colour in more disposable roles.
But as I said...I'm bringing this up more as a question than an accusation, so it's interesting to hear your response! It is, basically, in line with my own; I just still worry that I'm wrong. It's such a difficult subject to navigate I don't want to be close-minded?
And Adama’s scenery chewing was made worse by the fact that everyone around him was going with the subtle acting approach.
Remember that idea (I think) you had about making a list of all the times Adama acted like an ass? When I rewatch I'm totally going to do that and a list of times EJO has gotten 500% of his daily carbohydrate allowance via the scenery.
When Laura Roslin breaks, you know there is a problem.
And that you're in for some spectacular acting. *wibbles*
Laura wants to suffer. She wants the slow, painful death because, in her mind, that’s what she’s done to her people and she needs to be punished. She promised to save them and now they are all going to die in the cold and isolation of space.
Oooh, yes. True. I had mostly seen it as...a form of apathy. Just exhaustion and giving up and it being easier. Sort of how I saw Lee in Resurrection Ship committing suicide by default rather than design. Just...not saving himself rather than killing himself.
But I absolutley think you have a point about her believing she needs to suffer a long, painful death.
It’s ALL ABOUT HIM.
Really, we're just watching the wrong show here, aren't we? ;)
Re: Part the Secondasta77January 19 2009, 01:57:22 UTC
While I'm not saying it was necessarily what happened here, I'd also comment that in television and film, broadly speaking, women and/or people of colour are far more often cast as secondary characters who are in turn far more likely to be killed for emotional effect.
I agree. And you bringing this up, even if it doesn't apply to this specific instance, has made me think. As I mentioned before, could a member of the main cast been African American? As thankful as I am that Ron cast Jamie as Lee, why couldn't Lee have been black? Or Helo? Or Baltar? Or Tigh who was played by a black actor in the original series. So, if I'm being honest, the show could have done a better job in diversifying the cast just as every other show on TV could.
Remember that idea (I think) you had about making a list of all the times Adama acted like an ass? When I rewatch I'm totally going to do that and a list of times EJO has gotten 500% of his daily carbohydrate allowance via the scenery.
Re: Part the SecondbeccatoriaJanuary 19 2009, 11:38:40 UTC
Yeah, I think I agree with you there. I mean, I'm not suggesting that BSG is particularly bad in this area; heck it's a lot better than many shows, but it's never a bad thing to think about.
I do wonder if there would have been a whole load of different issues raised by casting a black actor in Tigh's role considering they reimagined him as a violent drunk. Obviously by this point in the series he's one of the most complex, interesting characters they have, but initially I think that could very well have been problematic.
I think the actor who plays Helo is actually part Canadian First Nations on his mother's side, but yes, I think that the character of Karl Agathon is generally perceived as Caucasian.
On a slightly similar tack, I do often wonder how the Bill-Lee familial relationship affects people's perceptions of Adama's race? I mean, do more people assume that Lee got a lot of recessive genes or do more people assume that EJO donning blue contacts signifies he's playing a white/more white character? Do people even give it any thought?
Re: Part the SecondravenskyewalkerJanuary 19 2009, 17:21:41 UTC
Hello. Pardon my delurk on this topic; I mean no harm...
I do wonder if there would have been a whole load of different issues raised by casting a black actor in Tigh's role considering they reimagined him as a violent drunk. Obviously by this point in the series he's one of the most complex, interesting characters they have, but initially I think that could very well have been problematic.
I quite liked the original Tigh, so actually found the "violent drunk" reimagining to be an insult to him, but this version of him has since become complex and interesting, yes. I imagine that casting him as black would have indeed been a problem, would have resulted in angry responses. However, characters can grow, so he wouldn't necessarily have always been an example of a negative black character, had he been cast as black.
On a slightly similar tack, I do often wonder how the Bill-Lee familial relationship affects people's perceptions of Adama's race? I mean, do more people assume that Lee got a lot of recessive genes or do more people assume that EJO donning blue contacts signifies he's playing a white/more white character? Do people even give it any thought?
I did give it a lot of thought, and tried to discuss it with friends, but couldn't get anywhere with it, so gave up; I figured I was being offensive by mentioning it. However, it's not genetically wrong for the father to look Hispanic/Latino (oops, here I am in California and am not certain which is the proper term to use) and the son to look so white. My ex-brother-in-law is of that stock and my nephew is dark, but my niece is blonde. Also, I remember hearing a white-looking kid comment publicly that his father's black and was a bit scared that he turned out so light.
*now expects to be slapped for discussing race in public* *gulp*
YES! Thank You!!! I talked at length about Lee in my post (yeah, you’re shocked ;) and it struck me how strong he was in the episode. How he worked through any personal pain to keep the fleet going. Jamie commented in an interview that Lee, in the final episodes, is looking forward and I really sensed that here. Also, earth has never held the same meaning to him as it has to the others and that made it somewhat easier for him to not fall apart and push ahead.
I know that I enjoyed her relationship with Lee more in this episode than I ever had before: that finally it felt healthy and safe and I was even sort of nostalgic for it even though y'all know how much I HATED the entire quadrangle back in S3.
Me too! They seemed really comfortable and at ease with each other and I never sensed that while they were dating or even married. And, for the first time, I saw chemistry. I should have known it was doomed. :/
Unlike some, I never had a problem with the female body count in S4 because I felt it was more a result of there being more secondary female characters than male characters of equivalent importance. I'm not sure if I think this ought to tip the scales. I'm also not sure I entirely disagree with the dramatic decision, which is an uncomfortable place for me to be. Especially since they didn't just kill off a female character to give male characters motivation, they also killed off one of their most prominent characters of colour. Yes we still have Athena/the Eights and Bill Adama, but people of African-American heritage have a particularly stereotypical tendency to get offed.
I’ve seen this brought up elsewhere and maybe I’m being naïve or blind, but my mind never went there. For me, it was never an issue that Lee married a woman who was not white, so her color wasn’t an issue when it came to her death. Dee just happened to be black and just happened to fit a role they needed - someone we knew well enough and cared enough about to make their death tragic, yet not one of the main characters that are still needed to tell their story. Maybe we could criticize the show for not casting a African American as Kara or Lee or Tigh or Helo, the show is predominately white, but Dee’s race was a non-issue for me…if that makes any sense.
Okay, Bill. That was...ridiculous. It was bad enough when you were either so ignorant or so selfish as to start playing the "who lost more?" game with your son when Kara died. To do it when that's his WIFE on the mortuary table is pretty fucking terrible.
I can’t add anything to this. WORD.
The next thing we see is Lee leaving the morgue. I don't imagine it was because he was done spending time with his wife, but I wouldn't want to stay there while my drunken father made her death all about him and his failures either.
That’s my take on it as well. If his father couldn’t be there for him, he sure as hell wasn’t going to be there to prop up his father, again.
BSG is usually really good at subtle acting. But no. Not here.
And Adama’s scenery chewing was made worse by the fact that everyone around him was going with the subtle acting approach.
I think this will be hella interesting and potentially awesome. Because we've never seen her give up before.
When Laura Roslin breaks, you know there is a problem.
Watching Laura have a crisis of faith and attempt defacto suicide is going to be awesome.
It’s an interesting parallel with Dee. Dee wanted to get it over with quickly. She gave herself one last happy day and then ended her suffering. Laura wants to suffer. She wants the slow, painful death because, in her mind, that’s what she’s done to her people and she needs to be punished. She promised to save them and now they are all going to die in the cold and isolation of space.
But I do think that Adama royally frakked that one up. What Laura actually needed at that point was for someone to say, "The hell I'm leaving you alone," and like, grab her in a bear hug no matter how much she yelled at them.
And when has Adama ever been able to deduce what other people need? It’s ALL ABOUT HIM.
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Simon, on the other hand ;)....yeah, he tends to often be cut out of the episodes or forgotten all together or, my favorite, in the episode without any lines. :/
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I have seen a number of people raising Dee's status as a woman as problematic in her death, but surprisingly few raising her ethnicity. I think I mostly mentioned it because I found myself disagreeing with the accusations of sexism but wasn't sure that was a defensible position, and then when trying to think critically about my own initial response, thought, well, I ought to acknowledge the other potential "ism" too. Which was, perhaps, not the best decision. I don't know.
But I do very much appreciate your opinion.
And I agree. Simon (Cymon?!) needs like, a personality and LINES stat. Perhaps now that the Cavil faction is comprised of only three models, if we see them again, he'll actually get to SAY SOMETHING. All we really know about him is that he seems to somewhat fill their scientist/doctor role. But even that's very vague.
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COMPLETELY SHOCKED! :p (but srsly, I will go read shortly and am sure I will enjoy). But yeah, Lee was great in this episode. I think not only is he in the position of looking forward and having Earth mean less to him personally, I think that it's easier for Lee to step up and have faith in himself when he has no other options. In some ways he's very like Roslin: when there's no one else to do it, that's when Lee just...loses his baggage and makes himself act. It's when he feels marginalised and irrelevant that he goes all emo and suicidal and overeats and stuff.
so her color wasn’t an issue when it came to her death.
Well, as I said, I actually basically agree with the dramatic decision and my first instinct is to agree and say that in this instance it was an example of killing a character who happened to be both female and black. That said, I know that the reason I'm giving, while sometimes valid, is also often used as an excuse when other factors are in play. This is more...me trying to be responsible and rigorous in my assumptions?
While I'm not saying it was necessarily what happened here, I'd also comment that in television and film, broadly speaking, women and/or people of colour are far more often cast as secondary characters who are in turn far more likely to be killed for emotional effect. So if that's something that's going on here, then it means it's less that Dualla's death in this particular instance dodgy in isolation and more that it plays into an unfortunate wider pattern of casting women and people of colour in more disposable roles.
But as I said...I'm bringing this up more as a question than an accusation, so it's interesting to hear your response! It is, basically, in line with my own; I just still worry that I'm wrong. It's such a difficult subject to navigate I don't want to be close-minded?
And Adama’s scenery chewing was made worse by the fact that everyone around him was going with the subtle acting approach.
Remember that idea (I think) you had about making a list of all the times Adama acted like an ass? When I rewatch I'm totally going to do that and a list of times EJO has gotten 500% of his daily carbohydrate allowance via the scenery.
When Laura Roslin breaks, you know there is a problem.
And that you're in for some spectacular acting. *wibbles*
Laura wants to suffer. She wants the slow, painful death because, in her mind, that’s what she’s done to her people and she needs to be punished. She promised to save them and now they are all going to die in the cold and isolation of space.
Oooh, yes. True. I had mostly seen it as...a form of apathy. Just exhaustion and giving up and it being easier. Sort of how I saw Lee in Resurrection Ship committing suicide by default rather than design. Just...not saving himself rather than killing himself.
But I absolutley think you have a point about her believing she needs to suffer a long, painful death.
It’s ALL ABOUT HIM.
Really, we're just watching the wrong show here, aren't we? ;)
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I agree. And you bringing this up, even if it doesn't apply to this specific instance, has made me think. As I mentioned before, could a member of the main cast been African American? As thankful as I am that Ron cast Jamie as Lee, why couldn't Lee have been black? Or Helo? Or Baltar? Or Tigh who was played by a black actor in the original series. So, if I'm being honest, the show could have done a better job in diversifying the cast just as every other show on TV could.
Remember that idea (I think) you had about making a list of all the times Adama acted like an ass? When I rewatch I'm totally going to do that and a list of times EJO has gotten 500% of his daily carbohydrate allowance via the scenery.
I look forward to that list! :)
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I do wonder if there would have been a whole load of different issues raised by casting a black actor in Tigh's role considering they reimagined him as a violent drunk. Obviously by this point in the series he's one of the most complex, interesting characters they have, but initially I think that could very well have been problematic.
I think the actor who plays Helo is actually part Canadian First Nations on his mother's side, but yes, I think that the character of Karl Agathon is generally perceived as Caucasian.
On a slightly similar tack, I do often wonder how the Bill-Lee familial relationship affects people's perceptions of Adama's race? I mean, do more people assume that Lee got a lot of recessive genes or do more people assume that EJO donning blue contacts signifies he's playing a white/more white character? Do people even give it any thought?
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I do wonder if there would have been a whole load of different issues raised by casting a black actor in Tigh's role considering they reimagined him as a violent drunk. Obviously by this point in the series he's one of the most complex, interesting characters they have, but initially I think that could very well have been problematic.
I quite liked the original Tigh, so actually found the "violent drunk" reimagining to be an insult to him, but this version of him has since become complex and interesting, yes. I imagine that casting him as black would have indeed been a problem, would have resulted in angry responses. However, characters can grow, so he wouldn't necessarily have always been an example of a negative black character, had he been cast as black.
On a slightly similar tack, I do often wonder how the Bill-Lee familial relationship affects people's perceptions of Adama's race? I mean, do more people assume that Lee got a lot of recessive genes or do more people assume that EJO donning blue contacts signifies he's playing a white/more white character? Do people even give it any thought?
I did give it a lot of thought, and tried to discuss it with friends, but couldn't get anywhere with it, so gave up; I figured I was being offensive by mentioning it. However, it's not genetically wrong for the father to look Hispanic/Latino (oops, here I am in California and am not certain which is the proper term to use) and the son to look so white. My ex-brother-in-law is of that stock and my nephew is dark, but my niece is blonde. Also, I remember hearing a white-looking kid comment publicly that his father's black and was a bit scared that he turned out so light.
*now expects to be slapped for discussing race in public* *gulp*
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