U.S. Code of Federal Regulations: "...the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).
Current U.S. national security strategy: "premeditated, politically motivated
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I don't know you particularly well, but this reminded me of a discussion I had at work this week with a Christian lady. I don't really remember how we got on the subject, but war. War and Christianity responsibility. She believes very firmly that war is wrong. The use of violence is never an answer to a problem.
I argued that although it wasn't good, sometimes force is necessary. She pointed out that Jesus never used violence/force to make a point. I pointed out the God mandated genocide on more than one occasion, knowing, of course, using Old Testament against New Testament examples is a losing battle.
I believe that Christians are here to keep the forces of evil at bay for a time, hence, the Age of the Church. And after the Rapture, there is noone keeping those forces held back. She said she didn't believe that is a fight we should even try to fight, because it's already won and not by us.
But light, specifically, the light of a candle, always fights against darkness to stay lit.
I found such views to be slightly repugnant. If God is a God who defends the weak, the fatherless, the helpless, it seems then that sets the example for us as well. Would you sit back and watch a great evil take your life and just go along with it because we shouldn't fight?
She said yes. She said she would've followed Hitler's regime because fighting against it is futile and wrong. I was speechless. Would you do that? Would you follow and become the greater evil so that you didn't fight against it? I could not. Perhaps it is the principles of justice my parents instilled in me...God Himself is just, does that then not set an example for us to be as well? Does believing that fighting is wrong really justify watching the weaker among us get trampled and abused right in front of us while we do nothing to stop it?
Isn't that what Pilate did?
If you believe in original sin, the utter depravity of man that dictates the need for a Savior, then you do not believe in 'innocents.'
Israel has always fought to further social objectives. Technically, religious beliefs fall into that category. In the Old Testament, God Himself often told them to fight to institute their religious beliefs. Would you question that?
Modern ethics blurs the absolutes and creates fuzzy relativity. What we see at necessary in the Old Testament sickens us when we see it today...all of this because of a lack of patience, you know. A lack of trust. Abraham's doubt and the birth of Ishmael is what caused this. That tiny bit of doubt and self-sufficiency thousands of years ago impacts you and me today. That's amazing...should we ever feel too small to be significant....that one action impacts the WORLD.
Ha. I should finish my coffee. And the irony of me pointing out the impact of doubt is kind of funny.
I do believe in original sin for sure. Maybe not with all of the catholic conotation that that phrase contains, but in essence yet, and I think that scripture would easily back that idea up. But I think that there is a problem when you use the word innocent like that. Yes innocence implies purity, but that does not mean that those who are not "innocent" do not deserve justive, do not deserve to be defended.
I agree that God sets the standard for us. We are called to be His reflection, not just stand around and stare at Him, but to reflect to the world the qualities that we should know so well.
Though I agree with basically everything that you said... I have to disagree that sometimes force is necessary. I am appalled that someone calling themselves a Christian, would say that they would follow Hitler, that's awful. But I don't agree that violence is the correct solution. I have never in my life heard of anything present or historical, that I actually believe was or could have been solved by violence. I think that, especially in the Middle East we see that time and time again, violence begets violence. We kill their parents and we believe that the children will love us, or at the very least that they will not hate us.
Our biggest problem in this country is that we have no idea with justice is. We think that we can sit back and do nothing while millions of people die and then we punish those that are responsible. The problem with that mentality is that, if we sat by and did nothing... then we are responsible. I could ramble about that for a while but that's a different topic for a different day.
I'll end with this: Did God engineer genocide in the Old Testament? Sure, that seems obvious. But I cannot take it upon myself to use violence and claim it in the name of God. I do not believe that God would tell someone to do that anymore. My life's work is to introduce people to my God and my Christ. I cannot do that by killing them. I might be able to do that by dying, but I can never do that by killing.
It's not only a catholic concept, actually. It's found in Calvinism, and to a more limited extent, Wesley-Armeniusism as well. Er - that is - original sin. My mind is dwelling on the corporate finance homework I can't figure out and running away with me.
In a fallen world, there is no 'right' answer...in business, you're often forced to choose between the lesser of two evils in order to promote the greater good. Sometimes violence is the lesser of two evils in an attempt to promote the greater good....
I can't concentrate on this right now, much as I would like to. I'll pick back up another time. And when I eventually get to the other side of the state, we'll have to debate it out in person.
While original sin is not solely a catholic idea now, most christian religions, with very few exceptions will find their roots and the roots of the beliefs in Roman Catholisism. This concept was around before either Calvin or Wesley, that's all I meant by that.
Much agreed on the debating it out in person part :-).
As for choosing between the lesser of two evils, I think that is a concept that we are meant to believe by this world but one that I reject anyway. Sin can never lead to anything good. God can make good of it, but that doesn't mean that the sin led to it. I have never believed that the ends could justify the means. The means need to be justified by themselves because we are often unsure of the end until it is too late to change our means. I do think that in the fallen world there is still a right answer. That answer must always fall in line with God's character and helping people meet Jesus. In that context there are many right answers. Just as truth needs no justification beyond its very nature, our means of accomplishing peace are the same. Death cannot create true peace, murder and killing creates disunity, while true peace is unity.
I have more thoughts, but I'll let you be studious... for now ;-)
I argued that although it wasn't good, sometimes force is necessary. She pointed out that Jesus never used violence/force to make a point. I pointed out the God mandated genocide on more than one occasion, knowing, of course, using Old Testament against New Testament examples is a losing battle.
I believe that Christians are here to keep the forces of evil at bay for a time, hence, the Age of the Church. And after the Rapture, there is noone keeping those forces held back. She said she didn't believe that is a fight we should even try to fight, because it's already won and not by us.
But light, specifically, the light of a candle, always fights against darkness to stay lit.
I found such views to be slightly repugnant. If God is a God who defends the weak, the fatherless, the helpless, it seems then that sets the example for us as well. Would you sit back and watch a great evil take your life and just go along with it because we shouldn't fight?
She said yes. She said she would've followed Hitler's regime because fighting against it is futile and wrong. I was speechless. Would you do that? Would you follow and become the greater evil so that you didn't fight against it? I could not. Perhaps it is the principles of justice my parents instilled in me...God Himself is just, does that then not set an example for us to be as well? Does believing that fighting is wrong really justify watching the weaker among us get trampled and abused right in front of us while we do nothing to stop it?
Isn't that what Pilate did?
If you believe in original sin, the utter depravity of man that dictates the need for a Savior, then you do not believe in 'innocents.'
Israel has always fought to further social objectives. Technically, religious beliefs fall into that category. In the Old Testament, God Himself often told them to fight to institute their religious beliefs. Would you question that?
Modern ethics blurs the absolutes and creates fuzzy relativity. What we see at necessary in the Old Testament sickens us when we see it today...all of this because of a lack of patience, you know. A lack of trust. Abraham's doubt and the birth of Ishmael is what caused this. That tiny bit of doubt and self-sufficiency thousands of years ago impacts you and me today. That's amazing...should we ever feel too small to be significant....that one action impacts the WORLD.
Ha. I should finish my coffee. And the irony of me pointing out the impact of doubt is kind of funny.
Reply
I agree that God sets the standard for us. We are called to be His reflection, not just stand around and stare at Him, but to reflect to the world the qualities that we should know so well.
Though I agree with basically everything that you said... I have to disagree that sometimes force is necessary. I am appalled that someone calling themselves a Christian, would say that they would follow Hitler, that's awful. But I don't agree that violence is the correct solution. I have never in my life heard of anything present or historical, that I actually believe was or could have been solved by violence. I think that, especially in the Middle East we see that time and time again, violence begets violence. We kill their parents and we believe that the children will love us, or at the very least that they will not hate us.
Our biggest problem in this country is that we have no idea with justice is. We think that we can sit back and do nothing while millions of people die and then we punish those that are responsible. The problem with that mentality is that, if we sat by and did nothing... then we are responsible. I could ramble about that for a while but that's a different topic for a different day.
I'll end with this:
Did God engineer genocide in the Old Testament? Sure, that seems obvious. But I cannot take it upon myself to use violence and claim it in the name of God. I do not believe that God would tell someone to do that anymore. My life's work is to introduce people to my God and my Christ. I cannot do that by killing them. I might be able to do that by dying, but I can never do that by killing.
Reply
In a fallen world, there is no 'right' answer...in business, you're often forced to choose between the lesser of two evils in order to promote the greater good. Sometimes violence is the lesser of two evils in an attempt to promote the greater good....
I can't concentrate on this right now, much as I would like to. I'll pick back up another time. And when I eventually get to the other side of the state, we'll have to debate it out in person.
Reply
Much agreed on the debating it out in person part :-).
As for choosing between the lesser of two evils, I think that is a concept that we are meant to believe by this world but one that I reject anyway. Sin can never lead to anything good. God can make good of it, but that doesn't mean that the sin led to it. I have never believed that the ends could justify the means. The means need to be justified by themselves because we are often unsure of the end until it is too late to change our means. I do think that in the fallen world there is still a right answer. That answer must always fall in line with God's character and helping people meet Jesus. In that context there are many right answers. Just as truth needs no justification beyond its very nature, our means of accomplishing peace are the same. Death cannot create true peace, murder and killing creates disunity, while true peace is unity.
I have more thoughts, but I'll let you be studious... for now ;-)
Reply
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