Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 8 2012, 00:46:34 UTC
That's absolutely perfect. I didn't even think of the temple metaphor but damn if it doesn't fit the bill. And yep, that's why I lined up the chronology the way I did too with the story order (not sure if you looked before posted this, but if you didn't double brownie points!)
And remember how we were talking about 'shadow and soul' being where we see him well and truly in love? well, in my mind, and the end of this section-- that's where you see it begin for her. i'd always imagined that 'some of your scars' was what she looked like well and truly in love (or as in love as she gets in this verse), and this is the lead-in to that.
And it has to work through ritual. The only knowledge can come through the experience, b/c words are off the table. These guys don't do words. And so there is the act. And repetitions of the act. And continual participation in the movement and the rhythm and the offering and the taking and cleansing and the sacrifice-- until it all begins to make sense. That is, when you get right down to it, the point of liturgy. It's telling a story through action, in the hopes the we will remember it better.
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 8 2012, 17:54:30 UTC
Oh Trent indeed. That song's been on the list for a while now. :)
The 'to me' was her compeleting the sentence-- finishing his thought--and i love everything that says about her headspace right there. He volunteers nothing but she fills in the blanks. And while I don't think she's wrong, the fact that she'll go there, even inside her mind, speaks volumes.
And the silence. Oh the silence. I can have my Disney assassins banter all damn day (and I love it, truly), but here, the silence is what makes it. This particular relationship is all about the negative space. (and strangely i'm loathe to say too much about this verse, to give away too many secrets, b/c it starts to lose the mysticism. once you try to explain worship, or devotion, or faith (or the lack thereof) you always run the risk of lessening the beauty. it's why apohasis is such a powerful and profound concept.)
THIS WOMAN. agency feels ftw!
Indeed. And in this story, her consent is very much thinly veiled imagery of her engagement in the reclamation process as a whole. **tackleglomps her**
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 8 2012, 18:35:59 UTC
apophasis = <333333333333333333333333
(not least b/c i am a massive theology dork.)
this was acutally the name of an earlier c/n story of mine where i really let the meta run wild, and it was a lot of fun. did you ever read it? you might like it. it's slighty more disney!assassins but only very slight. in fact, it wouldn't take much squinting to see that story with a cronenburg bent now that i think about it.
i think with dark, complicated female characters who don't emote there's this tendency to want to "fix" them-- to make them get in touch with the feeeeeeelings and get psycholanalyzed and therapy through their shit until they're OKAY (whatever the hell that means.) and frankly, it bothers me. i've also seen it manifest itself as a temptation to break down the character emotionally until they put themselves back together in a way that's more socially acceptable (read 'normal with normal emotions') and that's equally problematic. also problematic is the need to write such a character as a mass of psychological trauma just waiting to break through at the first sign of trouble. in my mind, someone this smart and this tough and who has seen this much shit has her coping mechanisms pretty well in place; i don't really second-guess the character's ability to deal with shit--I just assume they can. and of course trauma is going to come out, and of course emotional journeys are going to happen (otherwise why do we even bother?), but GAWD it needs to be handled delicately.
idk, this probably ceased to make sense long ago. :)
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 8 2012, 19:48:54 UTC
I think so. she drags his ass to an impromptu middle fo the night russian orthodox wedding, and ti's cross-cut with their first meeting.
really, there aren't enough facepalms in the world for that shit. We need to stop being so damn sacred of complexity full stop. another irksome irk i find with strong female fandoms is the desire to reduce her male partner to less-than so she can always come out looking better/stronger/smarter/faster/"all the things more than you because women are awesome and don't forget it." it can tip the equlity balance in a way i find very unpalatable. strength and power aren't zero-sum games. one person having it does not necessarily require a reduction in the other.
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 8 2012, 20:27:05 UTC
nah, don't worry about it. it wasn't a backhanded troll for comments. i'm just glad you enjoyed it; it was pretty much my first attempt at trying to take the words away from these two.
(incidentally, that is actually my primary irk with AO3. it's brilliant from a consumption perspective, but it's like tumblr for words. click a button if you like and no incentive to engage. ah, but that's a discussion for another day.)
i had seen that quote floating around but didn't realize it was hers. a thousand yeses. i think we'll start to get a lot more traction as a species when we throw men out as a yardstick for anything (same with women too). either/or gets so tiresome; i'd like the world I live in to be both/and (and full of wild purple technicolor too).
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 8 2012, 23:44:08 UTC
yeah, it's why i can't give up ye olde LJ either. they meta for me is everything. so much of my creative process comes from the conversations i have here--i'd go so far as to say that most of my fics are spawned in some way or another out of the dialogue. this shit don't happen in a vacuum.
SUPER SEXY SPIES!!!!
(... and i am happy to report that thoughts are happening for 3rd-party scenes and such.)
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')cybermathwitchAugust 8 2012, 22:53:15 UTC
i think with dark, complicated female characters who don't emote there's this tendency to want to "fix" them-- to make them get in touch with the feeeeeeelings and get psycholanalyzed and therapy through their shit until they're OKAY (whatever the hell that means.) and frankly, it bothers me. i've also seen it manifest itself as a temptation to break down the character emotionally until they put themselves back together in a way that's more socially acceptable (read 'normal with normal emotions') and that's equally problematic.
I went round and round all day about jumping in here or just having longer rambly think-y thoughts on my journal (answer: both), but this is touching on some things I'm really struggling with in some of the stories I'm writing (which I will grant you are closer to Disney than Cronenburg, but aren't entirely either) - where is the line between "fixing" and a character "healing" as a part of their growth and development? Because I'm a whole-hearted believer in characters coming to places and situations that help to heal them (Tony becoming and embracing Iron Man, for instance) as well as the situations that crop up that can break parts of a character down (Clint being possessed by Loki falls into this category, I'd imagine.)
And I'd think that the position that Natasha ends up in with SHIELD and her partnership with Clint, and eventually with the rest of the Avengers, that has to be a stronger place, a stronger foundation than what she had with the Red Room and would be a situation from which healing arises, which would change her. But I'm not sure I see what the differences are? I don't want to give her flat, pat answers or solutions, but I also want her to have a chance to grow and develop, if that makes any sense?
Or, you know, I could just be having one of those attacks of "oh god, what the hell am I actually doing" sorts of doubt-y moments that sneak up on you when you're not expecting them.
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')workerbee73August 9 2012, 00:03:12 UTC
Well, first off, i think emotional growrth is going to be a component of every story. You have to have conflict, overcome it, learn something at the end of the day--that's pretty much the blueprint for every story ever told. So it's not really about whether you have an emotional journey or not, it's simply how it's handled.
What gets me uneasy is when very spefically drawn characters (read: dark, complex women) are given conflict to help achieve a more normative response-- and the two best and most egregious examples i can think of are forced sexual trauma (rape, triggers, "oh, my awful past!", etc.) or "oops i got pregnant!" in order to force this woman to deal with her demons and normalize and confront emotions and get in touch with her inner earth goddess nurturer or whatever so by the end of the story OMG! Look at how fully actualized she is! All it took was some normative shit to be able to confront her inner womanness! Look how much better behaved she is now! Look how well she plays with others! She can give hugs! She can kiss her man with confidence! She can hold that baby with pride!
Okay, now i've gone off on a snarky tangent, allow me to stop being a jackass for a minute and actually unpack this. None of this-- NONE OF IT--is bad in and of itself. Not at all. A story can take me any place it damn well pleases---if it's told well. And for me, well = with nuance and subtlety. I need the conflict to feel organic and not contrived and the same thing goes with the emotional response of the protagonist. I want it to feel earned. What i dont' want is fixing for the sake of fixing or worse... some kind of normative fixing that doesn't feel appropriate to this character we're talking about.
For natasha, she no doubt has issues. She no doubt has demons she needs to fight. No doubt at all. So it's not a matter of if they come up but how they are handled. I guess what i'm trying to say is that she needs to be able to heal herself on her terms. It may not look normal or even healthy but it really doesn't matter if it works for her. And it doesn't mean that she has to be less complex or even less dark.
Okay now i'm just a rambling jackass. Is any of this making sense?
---also, this who exchange was me just shooting off my mouth in the most general way possible. It certainly wasn't meant to cause doubt for anyone, least of all you my dear. :)
Re: Fic: my skin is not my own (rated PG-13 for implications of sexin')cybermathwitchAugust 9 2012, 01:50:07 UTC
Okay, now i've gone off on a snarky tangent, allow me to stop being a jackass for a minute and actually unpack this. None of this-- NONE OF IT--is bad in and of itself. Not at all. A story can take me any place it damn well pleases---if it's told well. And for me, well = with nuance and subtlety. I need the conflict to feel organic and not contrived and the same thing goes with the emotional response of the protagonist. I want it to feel earned. What i dont' want is fixing for the sake of fixing or worse... some kind of normative fixing that doesn't feel appropriate to this character we're talking about.
For natasha, she no doubt has issues. She no doubt has demons she needs to fight. No doubt at all. So it's not a matter of if they come up but how they are handled. I guess what i'm trying to say is that she needs to be able to heal herself on her terms. It may not look normal or even healthy but it really doesn't matter if it works for her. And it doesn't mean that she has to be less complex or even less dark.
Okay now i'm just a rambling jackass. Is any of this making sense?
You're not a jackass, hon. :) And I see (or at least I'm pretty sure I see) where you're going with that. For me, whether or not a story is in character (or at the very least, whether or not the OOCness has a believable path to get there - show me *why* they're different now!) is of paramount importance.
In a way, it's some of the same kind of thing that happened with Kara Thrace - the baby thing in particular, because I'll admit right now to being a complete sucker for well done (read: in character) babyfic in numerous fandoms... but it's that "in character" part and dealing with how they are or are not dealing with it, in a manner that's true for them, and that's what appeals to me about it (which may or may not make any kind of sense, idek.) It was figuring out how she would react to this - and it often did the opposite of fixing her, god knows... I'm not sure where I was going with that. But yeah. And I might have a seriously angsty C/N fic almost done that deals with pregnancy but most certainly *doesn't* involve "fixing"... quite possibly the opposite, yikes
---also, this who exchange was me just shooting off my mouth in the most general way possible. It certainly wasn't meant to cause doubt for anyone, least of all you my dear. :)
I think most of my concern (which I was already having because I've gotten to "that point" in things where you look at what you've written so far and just go "what is this even?") is wanting to do her justice, and not make things pat or easy for her, and she's so hard to pin down sometimes (in part because I'm playing pretty close to movie canon and there's just not so much of it.) So I was at the point of going to the flist and being all "please tell me this isn't crap!" in any case. This just brought up a particular point I needed some clarity on. :D
And remember how we were talking about 'shadow and soul' being where we see him well and truly in love? well, in my mind, and the end of this section-- that's where you see it begin for her. i'd always imagined that 'some of your scars' was what she looked like well and truly in love (or as in love as she gets in this verse), and this is the lead-in to that.
And it has to work through ritual. The only knowledge can come through the experience, b/c words are off the table. These guys don't do words. And so there is the act. And repetitions of the act. And continual participation in the movement and the rhythm and the offering and the taking and cleansing and the sacrifice-- until it all begins to make sense. That is, when you get right down to it, the point of liturgy. It's telling a story through action, in the hopes the we will remember it better.
Gorgeous stuff, my friend. Truly.
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The 'to me' was her compeleting the sentence-- finishing his thought--and i love everything that says about her headspace right there. He volunteers nothing but she fills in the blanks. And while I don't think she's wrong, the fact that she'll go there, even inside her mind, speaks volumes.
And the silence. Oh the silence. I can have my Disney assassins banter all damn day (and I love it, truly), but here, the silence is what makes it. This particular relationship is all about the negative space. (and strangely i'm loathe to say too much about this verse, to give away too many secrets, b/c it starts to lose the mysticism. once you try to explain worship, or devotion, or faith (or the lack thereof) you always run the risk of lessening the beauty. it's why apohasis is such a powerful and profound concept.)
THIS WOMAN. agency feels ftw!
Indeed. And in this story, her consent is very much thinly veiled imagery of her engagement in the reclamation process as a whole. **tackleglomps her**
**with permission**
Reply
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(not least b/c i am a massive theology dork.)
this was acutally the name of an earlier c/n story of mine where i really let the meta run wild, and it was a lot of fun. did you ever read it? you might like it. it's slighty more disney!assassins but only very slight. in fact, it wouldn't take much squinting to see that story with a cronenburg bent now that i think about it.
i think with dark, complicated female characters who don't emote there's this tendency to want to "fix" them-- to make them get in touch with the feeeeeeelings and get psycholanalyzed and therapy through their shit until they're OKAY (whatever the hell that means.) and frankly, it bothers me. i've also seen it manifest itself as a temptation to break down the character emotionally until they put themselves back together in a way that's more socially acceptable (read 'normal with normal emotions') and that's equally problematic. also problematic is the need to write such a character as a mass of psychological trauma just waiting to break through at the first sign of trouble. in my mind, someone this smart and this tough and who has seen this much shit has her coping mechanisms pretty well in place; i don't really second-guess the character's ability to deal with shit--I just assume they can. and of course trauma is going to come out, and of course emotional journeys are going to happen (otherwise why do we even bother?), but GAWD it needs to be handled delicately.
idk, this probably ceased to make sense long ago. :)
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really, there aren't enough facepalms in the world for that shit. We need to stop being so damn sacred of complexity full stop. another irksome irk i find with strong female fandoms is the desire to reduce her male partner to less-than so she can always come out looking better/stronger/smarter/faster/"all the things more than you because women are awesome and don't forget it." it can tip the equlity balance in a way i find very unpalatable. strength and power aren't zero-sum games. one person having it does not necessarily require a reduction in the other.
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(incidentally, that is actually my primary irk with AO3. it's brilliant from a consumption perspective, but it's like tumblr for words. click a button if you like and no incentive to engage. ah, but that's a discussion for another day.)
i had seen that quote floating around but didn't realize it was hers. a thousand yeses. i think we'll start to get a lot more traction as a species when we throw men out as a yardstick for anything (same with women too). either/or gets so tiresome; i'd like the world I live in to be both/and (and full of wild purple technicolor too).
(i have not but now i'm intrigued...)
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SUPER SEXY SPIES!!!!
(... and i am happy to report that thoughts are happening for 3rd-party scenes and such.)
Reply
Reply
Reply
I went round and round all day about jumping in here or just having longer rambly think-y thoughts on my journal (answer: both), but this is touching on some things I'm really struggling with in some of the stories I'm writing (which I will grant you are closer to Disney than Cronenburg, but aren't entirely either) - where is the line between "fixing" and a character "healing" as a part of their growth and development? Because I'm a whole-hearted believer in characters coming to places and situations that help to heal them (Tony becoming and embracing Iron Man, for instance) as well as the situations that crop up that can break parts of a character down (Clint being possessed by Loki falls into this category, I'd imagine.)
And I'd think that the position that Natasha ends up in with SHIELD and her partnership with Clint, and eventually with the rest of the Avengers, that has to be a stronger place, a stronger foundation than what she had with the Red Room and would be a situation from which healing arises, which would change her. But I'm not sure I see what the differences are? I don't want to give her flat, pat answers or solutions, but I also want her to have a chance to grow and develop, if that makes any sense?
Or, you know, I could just be having one of those attacks of "oh god, what the hell am I actually doing" sorts of doubt-y moments that sneak up on you when you're not expecting them.
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What gets me uneasy is when very spefically drawn characters (read: dark, complex women) are given conflict to help achieve a more normative response-- and the two best and most egregious examples i can think of are forced sexual trauma (rape, triggers, "oh, my awful past!", etc.) or "oops i got pregnant!" in order to force this woman to deal with her demons and normalize and confront emotions and get in touch with her inner earth goddess nurturer or whatever so by the end of the story OMG! Look at how fully actualized she is! All it took was some normative shit to be able to confront her inner womanness! Look how much better behaved she is now! Look how well she plays with others! She can give hugs! She can kiss her man with confidence! She can hold that baby with pride!
Okay, now i've gone off on a snarky tangent, allow me to stop being a jackass for a minute and actually unpack this. None of this-- NONE OF IT--is bad in and of itself. Not at all. A story can take me any place it damn well pleases---if it's told well. And for me, well = with nuance and subtlety. I need the conflict to feel organic and not contrived and the same thing goes with the emotional response of the protagonist. I want it to feel earned. What i dont' want is fixing for the sake of fixing or worse... some kind of normative fixing that doesn't feel appropriate to this character we're talking about.
For natasha, she no doubt has issues. She no doubt has demons she needs to fight. No doubt at all. So it's not a matter of if they come up but how they are handled. I guess what i'm trying to say is that she needs to be able to heal herself on her terms. It may not look normal or even healthy but it really doesn't matter if it works for her. And it doesn't mean that she has to be less complex or even less dark.
Okay now i'm just a rambling jackass. Is any of this making sense?
---also, this who exchange was me just shooting off my mouth in the most general way possible. It certainly wasn't meant to cause doubt for anyone, least of all you my dear. :)
(now i just need that "let me love you" gif...)
Reply
For natasha, she no doubt has issues. She no doubt has demons she needs to fight. No doubt at all. So it's not a matter of if they come up but how they are handled. I guess what i'm trying to say is that she needs to be able to heal herself on her terms. It may not look normal or even healthy but it really doesn't matter if it works for her. And it doesn't mean that she has to be less complex or even less dark.
Okay now i'm just a rambling jackass. Is any of this making sense?
You're not a jackass, hon. :) And I see (or at least I'm pretty sure I see) where you're going with that. For me, whether or not a story is in character (or at the very least, whether or not the OOCness has a believable path to get there - show me *why* they're different now!) is of paramount importance.
In a way, it's some of the same kind of thing that happened with Kara Thrace - the baby thing in particular, because I'll admit right now to being a complete sucker for well done (read: in character) babyfic in numerous fandoms... but it's that "in character" part and dealing with how they are or are not dealing with it, in a manner that's true for them, and that's what appeals to me about it (which may or may not make any kind of sense, idek.) It was figuring out how she would react to this - and it often did the opposite of fixing her, god knows... I'm not sure where I was going with that. But yeah. And I might have a seriously angsty C/N fic almost done that deals with pregnancy but most certainly *doesn't* involve "fixing"... quite possibly the opposite, yikes
---also, this who exchange was me just shooting off my mouth in the most general way possible. It certainly wasn't meant to cause doubt for anyone, least of all you my dear. :)
I think most of my concern (which I was already having because I've gotten to "that point" in things where you look at what you've written so far and just go "what is this even?") is wanting to do her justice, and not make things pat or easy for her, and she's so hard to pin down sometimes (in part because I'm playing pretty close to movie canon and there's just not so much of it.) So I was at the point of going to the flist and being all "please tell me this isn't crap!" in any case. This just brought up a particular point I needed some clarity on. :D
(now i just need that "let me love you" gif...)
Ask and ye shall receive. :D
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