I too see strong parallels between Jimmy and Dean. (I blathered on in my LJ, if you wanna go have a look and pass comment. *g*)
I don't see that Jimmy's lost his faith, however. I think, like most people, he had an idea in his head about what God and heaven and service were about -- but it was a theoretical construct. He never imagined he'd get a practical demo, or that the truth was that he'd be chained to a comet. In the same way that Dean knew, in theory, that going to hell would be bad - and then found out for himself the difference between theory and reality. That throwaway line - Vivisection, if they're feeling generous? Ick. A very very very small hint of what he endured.
I loved how both Jimmy and Amelia were believers -- but that honestly? He was talking to an angel? That can't be real. Belief in the unseen is somehow easier to cope with than a real-life encounter with the divine. I love that. It rings so true. When it's a comfortable theory that actually doesn't require any real sacrifice? That's cool. When your belief stands up and smacks you in the face, says -- now you must walk the walk, not just talk the talk? That's where the rubber meets the road. I love how the show is tackling this. I also love how Jimmy was all a bit starstruck -- Heaven chose me, I'm special! And then the gloss wore off, because serving heaven is hard. It hurts. Chuck knows this. Jimmy knows this. And I think Dean is about to find out, up close and personal.
I loved Anna's quick appearance in this ep. I think she was there to put a face to Castiel's predicament -- she told us, unequivocally, that Castiel was being schooled. And speaking of his return-- I don't read Dean at the end being hurt by Castiel's rebuff. I think, linking it to what Anna told him and Sam, that he sees Castiel's been punished. And he knows he's partly responsible for that. He's shocked. And Castiel doesn't come across to me as angry at Dean, in that moment, or even as cold -- I see him as shell-shocked, still stunned by his punishment. 'I learned my lesson'. He's been whopped good and hard. And even though Castiel kept telling Dean that he wasn't a high up angel, I think a part of Dean hadn't quite grasped that. So now I'm really fascinated to see how their relationship will develop. A part of me thinks -- hopes -- that they haven't spent so much time building that complicated friendship/relationship to chuck it out the window so quickly. But if Dean does indeed subordinate himself to heaven, and to Castiel as heaven's front man -- that'll be interesting to watch too. So many layers!!!!
I will say I found this the least accomplished, structurally, of all Carver's scripts. There was a lot of shorthand, plot hole logic stuff that kind of got handwaved. But I'm prepared to let it slide because the emotional content is lovely, as always. I've said elsewhere I strongly believe the finale this year is a 3 act deal -- that we won't see the full scope of the story until we can watch eps 20, 21 and 22 as a unit. I still firmly believe it to be the case.
Yikes! They're being so gutsy. I love them for it.
I love your points about reality being far different than the abstract expectation of it, resulting in shock, disillusion, and difficulty in acceptance and belief. So very true! And serving God being hard; I love that, too. It is gutsy, it is deep, and I'm happy to go there despite the pain.
Poor Cas; he got smacked but good. I think he's in a hard place precisely because he does have compassion and does feel, but has been made to appreciate that there's a big picture that even he doesn't fully perceive, and precipitous action in the wrong direction could tip the balance. I think he's been given a glimpse of what's coming, and that - like Chuck - he's been shaken to his core and forbidden to share what he knows with the instruments who have to make their own choices. Poor Dean. And poor Sam.
Carver is shaky on plot details sometimes, but he always brings the heart, and I really embrace him for that!
And I seriously love this show for everything it's trying (and mostly succeeding!) to do. :)
(I've gotta go check out your LJ, but first - hate to say it, but I really need more sleep than I've been getting, so right now, I'm going to have to stop for a bit!)
I'm wondering what the viewing experience of this season is like from an atheist/agnostic perspective. I'm neither, and I know my interpretation of the text is coloured by that. Grrr. Wish I bunch of us could sit down with a few boxes of pizza and thrash this out in the same room! *g*
Totally agree with you about Castiel's position. Rock and a hard place, just like Chuck. Perhaps that's why he seemed so positive about Chuck -- he saw they had some important things in common. Both knowing ahead of the game, both placed as outsiders, with difficult jobs.
Hey, sorry to butt in! You were wondering what the season looks like from an atheist point of view: I am an atheist, and I'm willing to give you my opinion (I'm also curious about the point of view of believer).
I had a religious education (a Catholic one, since I'm French and Christians here are mostly Catholic), but sometimes during my teenage years, I decided that I did not believe in God (nothing happened to me, if you're wondering; I just realized that I did not have faith).
After 4.01, I was very worried about the introduction of angels in the Show. I think there was something very French in my reaction: we're a secular country, and God is very rarely mentioned on TV shows. But I also didn't like the idea of the Show eliminating the doubt about God's existence. Now that the season is almost over, I'm very happy that we never got to "meet" God, and that we're still doubting his existence. Like Anna said, maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, but we still have to take action: that the truth of human life, and that's faith (remember Layla in "Faith": you have to believe even when there's no hard proof). I think what I wanted was the possibility of remaining an atheist in the Show (atheism is a belief, too!). There is, I'm content ^^
About the angels: I may be an atheist, but I know a little about the Bible, and I think the way the Show portrayed them and the service of God is both consistent and true to the Bible. Angels are not human, it is no surprise that they don't understand us; it's not surprising either that they don't care about individuals - they have to save humanity as a whole. And serving God is hard, yo. You have to sacrifice yourself. But I'll stop here, because from what you wrote, I think we're agreeing there, and you know all my arguments.
That was my opinion. Hope I didn't bother you (and I apologize to Mary, for rambling all over her LJ, and not even to her!)
I too see strong parallels between Jimmy and Dean. (I blathered on in my LJ, if you wanna go have a look and pass comment. *g*)
I don't see that Jimmy's lost his faith, however. I think, like most people, he had an idea in his head about what God and heaven and service were about -- but it was a theoretical construct. He never imagined he'd get a practical demo, or that the truth was that he'd be chained to a comet. In the same way that Dean knew, in theory, that going to hell would be bad - and then found out for himself the difference between theory and reality. That throwaway line - Vivisection, if they're feeling generous? Ick. A very very very small hint of what he endured.
I loved how both Jimmy and Amelia were believers -- but that honestly? He was talking to an angel? That can't be real. Belief in the unseen is somehow easier to cope with than a real-life encounter with the divine. I love that. It rings so true. When it's a comfortable theory that actually doesn't require any real sacrifice? That's cool. When your belief stands up and smacks you in the face, says -- now you must walk the walk, not just talk the talk? That's where the rubber meets the road. I love how the show is tackling this. I also love how Jimmy was all a bit starstruck -- Heaven chose me, I'm special! And then the gloss wore off, because serving heaven is hard. It hurts. Chuck knows this. Jimmy knows this. And I think Dean is about to find out, up close and personal.
I loved Anna's quick appearance in this ep. I think she was there to put a face to Castiel's predicament -- she told us, unequivocally, that Castiel was being schooled. And speaking of his return-- I don't read Dean at the end being hurt by Castiel's rebuff. I think, linking it to what Anna told him and Sam, that he sees Castiel's been punished. And he knows he's partly responsible for that. He's shocked. And Castiel doesn't come across to me as angry at Dean, in that moment, or even as cold -- I see him as shell-shocked, still stunned by his punishment. 'I learned my lesson'. He's been whopped good and hard. And even though Castiel kept telling Dean that he wasn't a high up angel, I think a part of Dean hadn't quite grasped that. So now I'm really fascinated to see how their relationship will develop. A part of me thinks -- hopes -- that they haven't spent so much time building that complicated friendship/relationship to chuck it out the window so quickly. But if Dean does indeed subordinate himself to heaven, and to Castiel as heaven's front man -- that'll be interesting to watch too. So many layers!!!!
I will say I found this the least accomplished, structurally, of all Carver's scripts. There was a lot of shorthand, plot hole logic stuff that kind of got handwaved. But I'm prepared to let it slide because the emotional content is lovely, as always. I've said elsewhere I strongly believe the finale this year is a 3 act deal -- that we won't see the full scope of the story until we can watch eps 20, 21 and 22 as a unit. I still firmly believe it to be the case.
Yikes! They're being so gutsy. I love them for it.
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I love your points about reality being far different than the abstract expectation of it, resulting in shock, disillusion, and difficulty in acceptance and belief. So very true! And serving God being hard; I love that, too. It is gutsy, it is deep, and I'm happy to go there despite the pain.
Poor Cas; he got smacked but good. I think he's in a hard place precisely because he does have compassion and does feel, but has been made to appreciate that there's a big picture that even he doesn't fully perceive, and precipitous action in the wrong direction could tip the balance. I think he's been given a glimpse of what's coming, and that - like Chuck - he's been shaken to his core and forbidden to share what he knows with the instruments who have to make their own choices. Poor Dean. And poor Sam.
Carver is shaky on plot details sometimes, but he always brings the heart, and I really embrace him for that!
And I seriously love this show for everything it's trying (and mostly succeeding!) to do. :)
(I've gotta go check out your LJ, but first - hate to say it, but I really need more sleep than I've been getting, so right now, I'm going to have to stop for a bit!)
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Totally agree with you about Castiel's position. Rock and a hard place, just like Chuck. Perhaps that's why he seemed so positive about Chuck -- he saw they had some important things in common. Both knowing ahead of the game, both placed as outsiders, with difficult jobs.
Happy beddy byes! *g*
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I had a religious education (a Catholic one, since I'm French and Christians here are mostly Catholic), but sometimes during my teenage years, I decided that I did not believe in God (nothing happened to me, if you're wondering; I just realized that I did not have faith).
After 4.01, I was very worried about the introduction of angels in the Show. I think there was something very French in my reaction: we're a secular country, and God is very rarely mentioned on TV shows. But I also didn't like the idea of the Show eliminating the doubt about God's existence. Now that the season is almost over, I'm very happy that we never got to "meet" God, and that we're still doubting his existence. Like Anna said, maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, but we still have to take action: that the truth of human life, and that's faith (remember Layla in "Faith": you have to believe even when there's no hard proof). I think what I wanted was the possibility of remaining an atheist in the Show (atheism is a belief, too!). There is, I'm content ^^
About the angels: I may be an atheist, but I know a little about the Bible, and I think the way the Show portrayed them and the service of God is both consistent and true to the Bible. Angels are not human, it is no surprise that they don't understand us; it's not surprising either that they don't care about individuals - they have to save humanity as a whole. And serving God is hard, yo. You have to sacrifice yourself. But I'll stop here, because from what you wrote, I think we're agreeing there, and you know all my arguments.
That was my opinion. Hope I didn't bother you (and I apologize to Mary, for rambling all over her LJ, and not even to her!)
Elsa.
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